Why AI creative strategists will become the highest paid marketers

Reza Khadjavi: Thank you, thank you. Hey everybody. My name is Reza. I'm the CEO of Motion and I'm very, very excited to be here with all of you today. This is Creative Strategy Summit 2025, the fourth one of these that we've done. If this is the first one that you're tuning in for, you're in for a treat. And I'm I'm we've gathered the best in the business to help you learn, uh, what it means to become the best creative strategist in the world.

Reza Khadjavi: Um, Motion has a special commitment to the creative strategist role.

Reza Khadjavi: When we when we did our first summit four years ago, no one even knew what this role role role was. And today, it's one of the fastest growing roles in marketing. Every single D to C brand wants to wants to hire a creative strategist. And since then, Motion has always had this belief that the creative strategist role was going to become the most important role in marketing, and we'd committed to serving this role, uh, since the early days.

Reza Khadjavi: But we believe, and I'm I'm excited to tell you why, we believe that the creative strategist story is actually just getting started. As much as it's grown over the years, now, like, for example, 17,000 people registered for this event. We have tens of thousands of people who, uh, subscribe to our newsletter and want to learn more about what the creative strategist is. So you could see that there's an insane amount of momentum around this role over the last few years. But we believe very strongly that the story around this role is actually just getting started. And every single year that goes by, the creative strategist role will become even more important. The reason for that is that when you look back at the at at what gave birth to the creative strategist is around this problem that existed in growth marketing teams where there was this divide between the creative team and the performance team.

Reza Khadjavi: So if you had, for example, a creative person who was very, um, analytical and you had a growth person who was very data driven, the challenge was that when creative started to become a really important part of, um, of paid advertising, there was this really big divide. And so the creative strategist was the role that was meant to bring those two worlds together and it kind of act as this like hybrid person who is as creative as they are analytical, which in some sense is like this unicorn type of person that that, uh, is happens very rarely. But that that's who the creative strategist was. It was someone who maybe came from more of a performance background, but felt like they could go into their kind of creative side and bridge those two worlds. And that was like a really big pain point and a challenge for a lot of companies and the creative strategist came in to solve that problem. And just when it feels like, you know, the creative strategist started to master these two very opposing disciplines and started to become very good at it, you now have this third, um, point of mastery that the new creative strategist needs to needs to develop, and that's AI.

Reza Khadjavi: And so when a lot of people talk about the role of AI and and how that's going to shape organizations, they generally talk about it in this idea of collapsing of skill sets. So before you might have like two, three, or four different people who each have specialized roles, but AI is going to allow people to be, um, a lot more leveraged so that they can do more and more things just with like a single individual. And so the creative strategist has this really amazing opportunity to bridge the gap not only between the creative side and the performance side, but also be the person at the company who brings in AI into into into this, uh, workflow. And when the creative strategist does this, they create so much value for their company and for themselves and their own careers. And and the thing that they need is, you know, even in the early days to bridge the gap between performance and creative, that was not an easy thing to do. And in the same way, we actually don't believe that AI is this easy thing that you can plug into and say, oh, now that there's AI, the job is going to get a lot easier. We actually think it's going to get harder before it gets easier because there's a lot of mastery involved. But the creative strategist is the perfect role to do that because they've already been this like cross disciplined, um, hybrid individual. And so our commitment to this role is like since day one, we tried to build the best product in the world to support this job role. We tried to build the best content that we possibly could to help to help the creative strategist stay at the top of their game. And that commitment stays true, uh, to today.

Reza Khadjavi: So like, you know, Motion is now grown to 65 people. We've raised over $40 million in capital. And usually when a company gets to this stage, they start to like branch out into different functions and roles and try to do more things for more people. But every year at the Creative Strategy Summit, it's kind of like our renewed commitment to the community of creative strategists that Motion is still 100% focused on this role and building tools and content for, uh, this specific community. And so excited to kick this day off. We're we're starting the session with three people that I admire and respect quite a bit.

Reza Khadjavi: You'll notice that this is a this is a day about creative strategy and we're kicking off with three executives, neither of whom have the title creative strategist in their job title. But the thing that I want to talk to all of them about and and kind of jam with this community on is that the role of the creative strategist actually starts at the top. And so I want to make the argument that the three people that we're about to invite on stage, uh, Connor, Connor, and Cody are actually three terrific creative strategists, even though their job titles are executives and and leaders.

Reza Khadjavi: And so, um, if we can invite our three elite creative strategists onto the stage, we'd love to kick off with a conversation with all of you because when we talk about the creative strategist role, it's kind of a mindset. It's not just exactly, you know, a job role. And so, uh, waiting for one more, Mr. Cody, welcome to the party. What's going on, guys? How are you?

Connor Rolain: We're great.

Connor MacDonald: What's up, Reza?

Reza Khadjavi: So that was not rehearsed. I called you all creative strategists. What do you think about that? Does that make sense? Do you guys like accept that title? Do you do you reject my, uh, my labeling of you guys as a creative strategist? What do you think about that? Every time I talk to all of you, I'm just like, these guys are creative strategists. They just their title says something different.

Connor Rolain: I think that's accurate. I think we all started as more hands on keyboard creative strategists and I still think we all do a lot of creative strategy work in our day to day.

Connor MacDonald: I totally agree. I, you know, I also think it's funny, you said you guys had your first summit four years ago and like the creative strategist role wasn't even invented. So I think at some point, I've been at Ridge for nine years. So someone had to be serving the creative strategy function. And yeah, I think I I sat in that seat at least for a bit.

Cody Plofker: Yeah, I'm not I'm not writing briefs day to day, but I think I'm like a capital allocator of creative strategy. Like I'll make calls and decide of like, guys, we should really like I'm actually at at meta right now for like a creator summit and I'm just like, hey guys, like we should allocate and lean much more into partnership ads or something like that. So definitely still very involved in driving strategy.

Connor MacDonald: Cody, if if someone made you write a brief today, would it be good?

Cody Plofker: I would use AI, so yeah.

Connor MacDonald: Yeah.

Reza Khadjavi: You know, one of the things that's happened over the years as we've talked about the creative strategist role, I've noticed a lot of people get tripped up about the org chart and the org design and who has what title and and do I need to hire someone with this title or that title. And I think like, you know, when teams grow to your sizes, like you you all have like dedicated people at the company with the title creative strategist. But I really do think it's like this, um, skill and hat that everyone wears at the company, particularly like the growth marketing leadership to view go to market strategies in a creative first lens. It's like in some sense what I mean that like you guys are elite creative strategists, like generally when you think about anything go to market, you you kind of think about it as like, how are we going to tell that story? Who are we going to tell that story to? And like all of that is, you know, part of creative strategy. Obviously there's like channels and and and that sort of thing. But when you when you guys talk to your teams about just like growth and growth marketing, how do you think about the balance between how much of the conversation is centered around some kind of creative strategy versus like other dimensions and like how do you how do you guys think about that?

Connor MacDonald: You know, I'll I'll take a first pass here. I think a lot of, um, we've been thinking a lot about go to market at Ridge. We have probably 10 X the amount of new products and campaigns we've brought to market. So it is a function within the business that we've had to refine over the last two years. Um, and I would say before you get to like the true creative or content piece of it, we need to nail like what the message is and who it's for. And then the creative strategist is really putting it through the lens of, okay, we've got, you know, this product or this offer at this price point for this person. Now, how do I how do I push that through the lens of how will this work across paid social or like where do I need to create content that will perform in some way? Um, and I I I think it's like, and the only reason I bring it up in that order of operations is because I think there are some constraints a little bit, at least the way we've structured it at Ridge and like what are the inputs and then what is a creative strategist kind of producing from there.

Cody Plofker: Yeah.

Connor Rolain: I think Cody, you hit on something like the project management piece is like so important. Like the flywheel is so crazy. Like you might have 25 ads in production all at different stages. Like our creative strategy lead at Hexclad is she's a great creative strategist. She's she's really good with analytics too, but she's so dialed operationally. She's very organized. She knows how to manage the flywheel. I think that's a very, especially as you hit like scale and you need to like be playing this volume game, that is like you got to be super organized to manage that because there's so many moving parts to the creative production flywheel. And I think that also is like a very important skill that the the top 1% have.

Cody Plofker: Yeah, it's so not a one size fits all. And there's like definitely different walks of life that the person can come from.

Connor MacDonald: I'll take a quick pass at this. Um, I loved Cody's first point. We went through a period of time where we got too hung up on number of deliverables and the ultimate goal of the business is to to produce results. So ultimately everybody has to be centered around that, whether it's a creative strategist or the director of growth, the CMO or whatever. Um, the other one that I was going to say was I love copying. I like I'm I'm a huge, shamelessly, I'm a big fan of copying, checking out other brands ad accounts, etc, etc. But there is a productive way to do it and there's an unproductive way to do it. And I think many creative strategists may fall into the bucket of just following the big trendy brands, the people with bigger budgets, the people who are, uh, you know, unprofitably acquiring customers. You need to understand what is unique about your business, who are interesting comps in your industry, out of your industry, and being really thoughtful about where you're pulling ideas from, because I think that can easily kind of get lost.

Reza Khadjavi: So coming up coming up on the end here, one of the things about the creative strategist in our industry in general is that it's so bleeding edge because everyone in this industry is so smart and always trying to like outsmart each other and find the next edge and basically, you know, scale on new things before it happens. And so I'm curious when you guys think about heading into 2026, what are some like predictions or hot takes or just like perspectives that you have that you think are underrated right now that will probably go into next year and be like, yep, I knew I was right about that. Anything come to mind?

Connor MacDonald: Mine's the the slop one that I think we're maybe too hung up on like, hey, the AI can now produce content. We're getting really excited about that. Probably some point next year it's going to be about, oh, it's actually we got to we got to reel this in a little bit. We need to be applying way more taste and refinement.

Reza Khadjavi: Taste taste is the word basically. Like if if you get something out from AI and let's say it's just copy or an idea or something and you can't tell whether this is good or not, and you'll let's say you get excited by it and then like run a campaign around that, that that's not productive, you know, it's like being able to to apply taste to to what the AI systems produce becomes that's like the human skill, which is again the reason why we believe the creative strategist continues to get more and more and more important, even though there's all this demand already, there's like we find it very hard to imagine a world where the amount of great creative strategists equal the amount of demand that there are for them, which is also why we believe the creative strategist will probably end up being one of the most highest paying roles in marketing if they do a really great job because it's a revenue generating job and ultimately when a lot of the execution becomes more automated, the people who can have the best judgment around what to do create so much impact for their organizations that it becomes insane. And so like, you know, the the the focus is almost more around doubling down on what makes a really great creative strategist is actually more important than the skills of like fiddling with AI. The AI thing is more like, you know, we're we're we all work in tech, like we use a lot of tools in our day to day. It's like, how do you use Google Docs or how do you use like notion? Like AI is the same thing. Like imagine saying, how do you incorporate, uh, Google Docs into your workflow? It's just like it's everything, it's everywhere. It's like kind of immersed in it. What do you mean? It's like, what are we using Google Docs for? That's the right question. So, um, keep doubling down on being an elite creative strategist and dabble with AI and then the rest will the rest will sort itself out as Motion and many other companies race towards like building you some of the best tools that are going to blow your mind in the next few months. So I'm very excited. We're going to reveal some of them today and uh and and talk about what we have cooking, which is very, very exciting. Um, okay, so we have another question. This is a great one. We've talked about some of these. No, sorry, we have the opposite of this question, which is what are some of the most common mistakes or pitfalls that you've seen creative strategists make that they should watch out for?

Connor Rolain: I can take this one. Um, I think you need to be careful about like, even if you're not an analytics person, I think you need to be careful about like dumping that totally off to someone else. Um, because I feel like if you are you don't want to be in this place where you're like fully reliant on like another person needing to be the one to give you the data or the insight. I think that's like sort of a dangerous like place to, um, maybe position yourself in. Like even I think you can get to a certain level that will make you like orders of magnitude more dangerous on the analytics and data side, but I've seen that in the past where like there's no desire or urge for the creative strategist to understand the data because they have like maybe a really good media buyer that's really good with data. Um, but then you get to this point where like all you're really hearing from that person is like, oh, this did or didn't work. But then you're like not really digging into the well, what data points are you do you have that is making you say that? And I think like you want to be able to understand like what is thumb stop ratio? What is outbound click rate? What is CAC or ROAS? Like what is average like average video watch time or like 50% video views. Like if you can just understand how to measure and read those five metrics, you're going to be like 10 X more effective as a creative strategist. You don't need to be like a master wizard and like exporting data and creating pivot tables and all that jazz. Like lean on your data analysts to do that. But like you have to have some level of of ability in the analytics. So I would just caution to not like don't shy away from it, right? Like lean into it. You can get to a minimum level of like analytical skills as a creative strategist in in a few months if you just commit to like learning and like connecting with the right people on how to how to read the data. Um, and if you have good media buyers, like chances are they're more than down to like train you up on that stuff because that's less work for them to like package up this data and deliver the insight. Like I'm sure they would prefer if the creative strategist could directly do that stuff. So I just I would recommend people don't don't shy away from that piece of the job.

Connor MacDonald: I'll I'll take a quick pass at this. Um, I loved Cody's first point. We went through a period of time where we got too hung up on number of deliverables and the ultimate goal of the business is to to produce results. So ultimately everybody has to be centered around that, whether it's a creative strategist or the director of growth, the CMO or whatever. Um, the other one that I was going to say was I love copying. I like I'm I'm a huge, shamelessly, I'm a big fan of copying, checking out other brands ad accounts, etc, etc. But there is a productive way to do it and there's an unproductive way to do it. And I think many creative strategists may fall into the bucket of just following the big trendy brands, the people with bigger budgets, the people who are, uh, you know, unprofitably acquiring customers. You need to understand what is unique about your business, who are interesting comps in your industry, out of your industry, and being really thoughtful about where you're pulling ideas from, because I think that can easily kind of get lost.

Reza Khadjavi: So coming up coming up on the end here, one of the things about the creative strategist in our industry in general is that it's so bleeding edge because everyone in this industry is so smart and always trying to like outsmart each other and find the next edge and basically, you know, scale on new things before it happens. And so I'm curious when you guys think about heading into 2026, what are some like predictions or hot takes or just like perspectives that you have that you think are underrated right now that will probably go into next year and be like, yep, I knew I was right about that. Anything come to mind?

Connor MacDonald: Mine's the the slop one that I think we're maybe too hung up on like, hey, the AI can now produce content. We're getting really excited about that. Probably some point next year it's going to be about, oh, it's actually we got to we got to reel this in a little bit. We need to be applying way more taste and refinement.

Cody Plofker: Yeah, it's so not a one size fits all. And there's like definitely different walks of life that the person can come from.

Connor MacDonald: I'll I'll take a quick pass at this. Um, and I say this all the time, you know, our paid media and performance creative team are really on the front lines of determining what is resonating with who and why. So we're we have a I'm missing our go to market call right now, so I'll have to catch up with the team later. But, um, we have a big launch next week and we have a handful of value props associated with it. And a lot of our creative strategy on the launch of a new silhouette comes down to, hey, this is what we think will work. And this goes back to my point around inputs through the lens of performance creative. Now we're serving impressions and we're getting feedback around that. Um, and we're able to do the data analysis and we say, hey, these are the three value props or the two personas that we think this new product silhouette will work with. Let's push that into market these ways. And then you're absolutely right, Reza, that is the most valuable information we get to feedback and help inform our merchandise calendar for, you know, later next year or something like that.

Reza Khadjavi: Yeah, I think Cody, you hit on something, the project management piece is like so important. Like the flywheel is so crazy. Like you might have 25 ads in production all at different stages. Like our creative strategy lead at Hexclad is she's a great creative strategist. She's she's really good with analytics too, but she's so dialed operationally. She's very organized. She knows how to manage the flywheel. I think that's a very, especially as you hit like scale and you need to like be playing this volume game, that is like you got to be super organized to manage that because there's so many moving parts to the creative production flywheel. And I think that also is like a very important skill that the the top 1% have.

Cody Plofker: Yeah, it's so not a one size fits all. And there's like definitely different walks of life that the person can come from.

Connor MacDonald: I'll I'll take a quick pass at this. I think to a certain degree, there are economies of scale to producing creative. Like if I have a new product, I think the hardest ads to make from a time perspective are probably the first 10. If I need to make five more, it doesn't require 50% more energy. So you want to be at from a business perspective, creating products where you can benefit from economies of scale even at the creative level, for instance. Then you get into like because what you want to avoid is building a bunch of products and all of them need 10 unique ads. And then you're spending the hardest ads to make, you've you've given your test the you've given yourself the task of creating six or seven or eight sets of them. That is not a scalable strategy. So you want as fewer scalable ones. That's what we're focused on. That comes down to having a a decent sized TAM, having good economics, and understanding the funnels and acquisition engines you need to build to support those.

Reza Khadjavi: Super cool.

Connor Rolain: Yeah, we have a we have like we we operate, um, with this goal setting framework called the pyramid of clarity, which is very similar to like OKRs. And we have a we have a strategy this year that is only plant seeds that can turn into giants. And we I developed that strategy because I I noticed that like I felt like a lot of our team's time was getting taken up with with like channel rollouts or just overall tactics that might provide performance, but like probably never going to scale. Like Cody talked about this, I think in a previous episode as well. He's like, I don't want my team spending time trying to roll out a channel that's only going to get us to $1,000 a spend per day. Like we take that strategic lens on everything we do. So like, I'm not going to launch ads around kitchen tools. Do I think we could make kitchen tools work in the ad account? Absolutely. It's a $250 set of kitchen tools. We have the margin, we have the price point. But at the end of the day, like I just doubt that product line is ever going to get above a few thousand dollars per day in spend. So like, why would I not spend that time making the next cookware ad that's going to get us an incremental $200,000 or $300,000 of spend. So we're always that's not just with paid, Reza, but like literally everything we do has to be able to pass through that that strategic lens. If the answer's no, this will never this is not a seed that could turn into a giant, we just won't do it. Even if it could get us like an efficiency win at a small scale.

Reza Khadjavi: Can you talk a bit more about that? What what how do you how do you get to that point to realize that like it would be capped at this kind of scale or spend? What's the what's the steps that you go to try to understand where the limits could be?

Connor Rolain: Yeah. I mean, I think you you have to lean on your historical data a lot, you know, like, um, for us, Tik Tok has never been like a major part of our mix. Um, it's a it's a part of our mix, right? But it's like it's not anything higher than 10% ever. Um, and we never got we've never gotten it to anything higher than 10%. We've tried. Um, we haven't we haven't succeeded yet. So at least for now, because we have that historical data to lean on, we have decided that we are not going to spend a ton of time producing like a bunch of net new Tik Tok first content. We think we're better off producing like Facebook and Instagram ad first content that then might port over well to Tik Tok. That could change. Like I I still think there's value into like taking like sprinting at it and seeing if we can get that mix. But that's an example where we made that decision based on the historical data that we do have. Um, not everything you have historical data to like sometimes you just need to trust your gut, right? And be like, I I just don't think kitchen tools are going to work as an acquisition product.

Reza Khadjavi: Tell me more about that one, like the kitchen tools. Like how what's what's the thinking there to know that like it's it's unlikely to scale?

Connor Rolain: It's just a niche product, you know, it's like not everyone is going to want to buy a really expensive set of kitchen tools. That's point number one. Point number two is it actually fits in really nicely with an with an already established funnel of ours, which is our 12 piece set funnel. So like, why would I go build a new acquisition funnel around the kitchen tools when I can just insert this product as an upsell strategically within a funnel that already exists. Like that's going to drive way more acquisition revenue on that product for us than building its own funnel ever is. So it's just like what's that what's that opportunity cost between the two? Um, we know the 12 piece set's our hero product and the six piece set is the next one. So why not just set it up in those funnels that already exist? And like that's probably a better use of our time and and a lower lift than building net new funnels around this product.

Reza Khadjavi: Mhm. Really cool. Connor, you guys have been doing a bunch around, how many people in the world are going to buy wallets? I I feel like you guys joke about this every now and then that like the the the market size for wallets is insane and I feel like you guys will not stop until every one owns a Ridge wallet or what's the

Connor MacDonald: Yeah, well, just some quick math, there's like 300 million people in the US. Half of them are men. So we've got another like 140 million wallets to sell, something like that. We're looking for 100% penetration. Um, but no, we we've thought it obviously wallets are a tough category because one, guys typically only own one and then ours is guaranteed for life. So every time we acquire a new customer, it's actually I think slightly more difficult to acquire the next one. Um, so we've thought a lot about product expansion and category expansion. So the way our business is structured is we have really our three scalable categories. We have everyday carry, we have travel, we have rings, and uh, or we call it jewelry, and then we have hero products within that, wallet, luggage, wedding bands. Um, now what I'll say quickly is I think to a certain degree, there are economies of scale to producing creative. Like if I have a new product, I think the hardest ads to make from a time perspective are probably the first 10. If I need to make five more, it doesn't require 50% more energy. So you want to be at from a business perspective, creating products where you can benefit from economies of scale even at the creative level, for instance. Then you get into like because what you want to avoid is building a bunch of products and all of them need 10 unique ads. And then you're spending the hardest ads to make, you've you've given your test the you've given yourself the task of creating six or seven or eight sets of them. That is not a scalable strategy. So you want as fewer scalable ones. That's what we're focused on. That comes down to having a a decent sized TAM, having good economics, and understanding the funnels and acquisition engines you need to build to support those.

Reza Khadjavi: Super cool.

Connor Rolain: Yeah, we have a we have like we we operate, um, with this goal setting framework called the pyramid of clarity, which is very similar to like OKRs. And we have a we have a strategy this year that is only plant seeds that can turn into giants. And we I developed that strategy because I I noticed that like I felt like a lot of our team's time was getting taken up with with like channel rollouts or just overall tactics that might provide performance, but like probably never going to scale. Like Cody talked about this, I think in a previous episode as well. He's like, I don't want my team spending time trying to roll out a channel that's only going to get us to $1,000 a spend per day. Like we take that strategic lens on everything we do. So like, I'm not going to launch ads around kitchen tools. Do I think we could make kitchen tools work in the ad account? Absolutely. It's a $250 set of kitchen tools. We have the margin, we have the price point. But at the end of the day, like I just doubt that product line is ever going to get above a few thousand dollars per day in spend. So like, why would I not spend that time making the next cookware ad that's going to get us an incremental $200,000 or $300,000 of spend. So we're always that's not just with paid, Reza, but like literally everything we do has to be able to pass through that that strategic lens. If the answer's no, this will never this is not a seed that could turn into a giant, we just won't do it. Even if it could get us like an efficiency win at a small scale.

Reza Khadjavi: Can you talk a bit more about that? What what how do you how do you get to that point to realize that like it would be capped at this kind of scale or spend? What's the what's the steps that you go to try to understand where the limits could be?

Connor Rolain: Yeah. I mean, I think you you have to lean on your historical data a lot, you know, like, um, for us, Tik Tok has never been like a major part of our mix. Um, it's a it's a part of our mix, right? But it's like it's not anything higher than 10% ever. Um, and we never got we've never gotten it to anything higher than 10%. We've tried. Um, we haven't we haven't succeeded yet. So at least for now, because we have that historical data to lean on, we have decided that we are not going to spend a ton of time producing like a bunch of net new Tik Tok first content. We think we're better off producing like Facebook and Instagram ad first content that then might port over well to Tik Tok. That could change. Like I I still think there's value into like taking like sprinting at it and seeing if we can get that mix. But that's an example where we made that decision based on the historical data that we do have. Um, not everything you have historical data to like sometimes you just need to trust your gut, right? And be like, I I just don't think kitchen tools are going to work as an acquisition product.

Reza Khadjavi: Tell me more about that one, like the kitchen tools. Like how what's what's the thinking there to know that like it's it's unlikely to scale?

Connor Rolain: It's just a niche product, you know, it's like not everyone is going to want to buy a really expensive set of kitchen tools. That's point number one. Point number two is it actually fits in really nicely with an with an already established funnel of ours, which is our 12 piece set funnel. So like, why would I go build a new acquisition funnel around the kitchen tools when I can just insert this product as an upsell strategically within a funnel that already exists. Like that's going to drive way more acquisition revenue on that product for us than building its own funnel ever is. So it's just like what's that what's that opportunity cost between the two? Um, we know the 12 piece set's our hero product and the six piece set is the next one. So why not just set it up in those funnels that already exist? And like that's probably a better use of our time and and a lower lift than building net new funnels around this product.

Reza Khadjavi: Mhm. Really cool. Connor, you guys have been doing a bunch around, how many people in the world are going to buy wallets? I I feel like you guys joke about this every now and then that like the the the market size for wallets is insane and I feel like you guys will not stop until every one owns a Ridge wallet or what's the

Connor MacDonald: Yeah, well, just some quick math, there's like 300 million people in the US. Half of them are men. So we've got another like 140 million wallets to sell, something like that. We're looking for 100% penetration. Um, but no, we we've thought it obviously wallets are a tough category because one, guys typically only own one and then ours is guaranteed for life. So every time we acquire a new customer, it's actually I think slightly more difficult to acquire the next one. Um, so we've thought a lot about product expansion and category expansion. So the way our business is structured is we have really our three scalable categories. We have everyday carry, we have travel, we have rings, and uh, or we call it jewelry, and then we have hero products within that, wallet, luggage, wedding bands. Um, now what I'll say quickly is I think to a certain degree, there are economies of scale to producing creative. Like if I have a new product, I think the hardest ads to make from a time perspective are probably the first 10. If I need to make five more, it doesn't require 50% more energy. So you want to be at from a business perspective, creating products where you can benefit from economies of scale even at the creative level, for instance. Then you get into like because what you want to avoid is building a bunch of products and all of them need 10 unique ads. And then you're spending the hardest ads to make, you've you've given your test the you've given yourself the task of creating six or seven or eight sets of them. That is not a scalable strategy. So you want as fewer scalable ones. That's what we're focused on. That comes down to having a a decent sized TAM, having good economics, and understanding the funnels and acquisition engines you need to build to support those.

Reza Khadjavi: Super cool.

Connor Rolain: Yeah, we have a we have like we we operate, um, with this goal setting framework called the pyramid of clarity, which is very similar to like OKRs. And we have a we have a strategy this year that is only plant seeds that can turn into giants. And we I developed that strategy because I I noticed that like I felt like a lot of our team's time was getting taken up with with like channel rollouts or just overall tactics that might provide performance, but like probably never going to scale. Like Cody talked about this, I think in a previous episode as well. He's like, I don't want my team spending time trying to roll out a channel that's only going to get us to $1,000 a spend per day. Like we take that strategic lens on everything we do. So like, I'm not going to launch ads around kitchen tools. Do I think we could make kitchen tools work in the ad account? Absolutely. It's a $250 set of kitchen tools. We have the margin, we have the price point. But at the end of the day, like I just doubt that product line is ever going to get above a few thousand dollars per day in spend. So like, why would I not spend that time making the next cookware ad that's going to get us an incremental $200,000 or $300,000 of spend. So we're always that's not just with paid, Reza, but like literally everything we do has to be able to pass through that that strategic lens. If the answer's no, this will never this is not a seed that could turn into a giant, we just won't do it. Even if it could get us like an efficiency win at a small scale.

Reza Khadjavi: Can you talk a bit more about that? What what how do you how do you get to that point to realize that like it would be capped at this kind of scale or spend? What's the what's the steps that you go to try to understand where the limits could be?

Connor Rolain: Yeah. I mean, I think you you have to lean on your historical data a lot, you know, like, um, for us, Tik Tok has never been like a major part of our mix. Um, it's a it's a part of our mix, right? But it's like it's not anything higher than 10% ever. Um, and we never got we've never gotten it to anything higher than 10%. We've tried. Um, we haven't we haven't succeeded yet. So at least for now, because we have that historical data to lean on, we have decided that we are not going to spend a ton of time producing like a bunch of net new Tik Tok first content. We think we're better off producing like Facebook and Instagram ad first content that then might port over well to Tik Tok. That could change. Like I I still think there's value into like taking like sprinting at it and seeing if we can get that mix. But that's an example where we made that decision based on the historical data that we do have. Um, not everything you have historical data to like sometimes you just need to trust your gut, right? And be like, I I just don't think kitchen tools are going to work as an acquisition product.

Reza Khadjavi: Tell me more about that one, like the kitchen tools. Like how what's what's the thinking there to know that like it's it's unlikely to scale?

Connor Rolain: It's just a niche product, you know, it's like not everyone is going to want to buy a really expensive set of kitchen tools. That's point number one. Point number two is it actually fits in really nicely with an with an already established funnel of ours, which is our 12 piece set funnel. So like, why would I go build a new acquisition funnel around the kitchen tools when I can just insert this product as an upsell strategically within a funnel that already exists. Like that's going to drive way more acquisition revenue on that product for us than building its own funnel ever is. So it's just like what's that what's that opportunity cost between the two? Um, we know the 12 piece set's our hero product and the six piece set is the next one. So why not just set it up in those funnels that already exist? And like that's probably a better use of our time and and a lower lift than building net new funnels around this product.

Reza Khadjavi: Mhm. Really cool. Connor, you guys have been doing a bunch around, how many people in the world are going to buy wallets? I I feel like you guys joke about this every now and then that like the the the market size for wallets is insane and I feel like you guys will not stop until every one owns a Ridge wallet or what's the

Connor MacDonald: Yeah, well, just some quick math, there's like 300 million people in the US. Half of them are men. So we've got another like 140 million wallets to sell, something like that. We're looking for 100% penetration. Um, but no, we we've thought it obviously wallets are a tough category because one, guys typically only own one and then ours is guaranteed for life. So every time we acquire a new customer, it's actually I think slightly more difficult to acquire the next one. Um, so we've thought a lot about product expansion and category expansion. So the way our business is structured is we have really our three scalable categories. We have everyday carry, we have travel, we have rings, and uh, or we call it jewelry, and then we have hero products within that, wallet, luggage, wedding bands. Um, now what I'll say quickly is I think to a certain degree, there are economies of scale to producing creative. Like if I have a new product, I think the hardest ads to make from a time perspective are probably the first 10. If I need to make five more, it doesn't require 50% more energy. So you want to be at from a business perspective, creating products where you can benefit from economies of scale even at the creative level, for instance. Then you get into like because what you want to avoid is building a bunch of products and all of them need 10 unique ads. And then you're spending the hardest ads to make, you've you've given your test the you've given yourself the task of creating six or seven or eight sets of them. That is not a scalable strategy. So you want as fewer scalable ones. That's what we're focused on. That comes down to having a a decent sized TAM, having good economics, and understanding the funnels and acquisition engines you need to build to support those.

Reza Khadjavi: Super cool.

Connor Rolain: Yeah, we have a we have like we we operate, um, with this goal setting framework called the pyramid of clarity, which is very similar to like OKRs. And we have a we have a strategy this year that is only plant seeds that can turn into giants. And we I developed that strategy because I I noticed that like I felt like a lot of our team's time was getting taken up with with like channel rollouts or just overall tactics that might provide performance, but like probably never going to scale. Like Cody talked about this, I think in a previous episode as well. He's like, I don't want my team spending time trying to roll out a channel that's only going to get us to $1,000 a spend per day. Like we take that strategic lens on everything we do. So like, I'm not going to launch ads around kitchen tools. Do I think we could make kitchen tools work in the ad account? Absolutely. It's a $250 set of kitchen tools. We have the margin, we have the price point. But at the end of the day, like I just doubt that product line is ever going to get above a few thousand dollars per day in spend. So like, why would I not spend that time making the next cookware ad that's going to get us an incremental $200,000 or $300,000 of spend. So we're always that's not just with paid, Reza, but like literally everything we do has to be able to pass through that that strategic lens. If the answer's no, this will never this is not a seed that could turn into a giant, we just won't do it. Even if it could get us like an efficiency win at a small scale.

Reza Khadjavi: Can you talk a bit more about that? What what how do you how do you get to that point to realize that like it would be capped at this kind of scale or spend? What's the what's the steps that you go to try to understand where the limits could be?

Connor Rolain: Yeah. I mean, I think you you have to lean on your historical data a lot, you know, like, um, for us, Tik Tok has never been like a major part of our mix. Um, it's a it's a part of our mix, right? But it's like it's not anything higher than 10% ever. Um, and we never got we've never gotten it to anything higher than 10%. We've tried. Um, we haven't we haven't succeeded yet. So at least for now, because we have that historical data to lean on, we have decided that we are not going to spend a ton of time producing like a bunch of net new Tik Tok first content. We think we're better off producing like Facebook and Instagram ad first content that then might port over well to Tik Tok. That could change. Like I I still think there's value into like taking like sprinting at it and seeing if we can get that mix. But that's an example where we made that decision based on the historical data that we do have. Um, not everything you have historical data to like sometimes you just need to trust your gut, right? And be like, I I just don't think kitchen tools are going to work as an acquisition product.

Reza Khadjavi: Tell me more about that one, like the kitchen tools. Like how what's what's the thinking there to know that like it's it's unlikely to scale?

Connor Rolain: It's just a niche product, you know, it's like not everyone is going to want to buy a really expensive set of kitchen tools. That's point number one. Point number two is it actually fits in really nicely with an with an already established funnel of ours, which is our 12 piece set funnel. So like, why would I go build a new acquisition funnel around the kitchen tools when I can just insert this product as an upsell strategically within a funnel that already exists. Like that's going to drive way more acquisition revenue on that product for us than building its own funnel ever is. So it's just like what's that what's that opportunity cost between the two? Um, we know the 12 piece set's our hero product and the six piece set is the next one. So why not just set it up in those funnels that already exist? And like that's probably a better use of our time and and a lower lift than building net new funnels around this product.

Reza Khadjavi: Mhm. Really cool. Connor, you guys have been doing a bunch around, how many people in the world are going to buy wallets? I I feel like you guys joke about this every now and then that like the the the market size for wallets is insane and I feel like you guys will not stop until every one owns a Ridge wallet or what's the

Connor MacDonald: Yeah, well, just some quick math, there's like 300 million people in the US. Half of them are men. So we've got another like 140 million wallets to sell, something like that. We're looking for 100% penetration. Um, but no, we we've thought it obviously wallets are a tough category because one, guys typically only own one and then ours is guaranteed for life. So every time we acquire a new customer, it's actually I think slightly more difficult to acquire the next one. Um, so we've thought a lot about product expansion and category expansion. So the way our business is structured is we have really our three scalable categories. We have everyday carry, we have travel, we have rings, and uh, or we call it jewelry, and then we have hero products within that, wallet, luggage, wedding bands. Um, now what I'll say quickly is I think to a certain degree, there are economies of scale to producing creative. Like if I have a new product, I think the hardest ads to make from a time perspective are probably the first 10. If I need to make five more, it doesn't require 50% more energy. So you want to be at from a business perspective, creating products where you can benefit from economies of scale even at the creative level, for instance. Then you get into like because what you want to avoid is building a bunch of products and all of them need 10 unique ads. And then you're spending the hardest ads to make, you've you've given your test the you've given yourself the task of creating six or seven or eight sets of them. That is not a scalable strategy. So you want as fewer scalable ones. That's what we're focused on. That comes down to having a a decent sized TAM, having good economics, and understanding the funnels and acquisition engines you need to build to support those.

Reza Khadjavi: Super cool.

Connor Rolain: Yeah, we have a we have like we we operate, um, with this goal setting framework called the pyramid of clarity, which is very similar to like OKRs. And we have a we have a strategy this year that is only plant seeds that can turn into giants. And we I developed that strategy because I I noticed that like I felt like a lot of our team's time was getting taken up with with like channel rollouts or just overall tactics that might provide performance, but like probably never going to scale. Like Cody talked about this, I think in a previous episode as well. He's like, I don't want my team spending time trying to roll out a channel that's only going to get us to $1,000 a spend per day. Like we take that strategic lens on everything we do. So like, I'm not going to launch ads around kitchen tools. Do I think we could make kitchen tools work in the ad account? Absolutely. It's a $250 set of kitchen tools. We have the margin, we have the price point. But at the end of the day, like I just doubt that product line is ever going to get above a few thousand dollars per day in spend. So like, why would I not spend that time making the next cookware ad that's going to get us an incremental $200,000 or $300,000 of spend. So we're always that's not just with paid, Reza, but like literally everything we do has to be able to pass through that that strategic lens. If the answer's no, this will never this is not a seed that could turn into a giant, we just won't do it. Even if it could get us like an efficiency win at a small scale.

Reza Khadjavi: Can you talk a bit more about that? What what how do you how do you get to that point to realize that like it would be capped at this kind of scale or spend? What's the what's the steps that you go to try to understand where the limits could be?

Connor Rolain: Yeah. I mean, I think you you have to lean on your historical data a lot, you know, like, um, for us, Tik Tok has never been like a major part of our mix. Um, it's a it's a part of our mix, right? But it's like it's not anything higher than 10% ever. Um, and we never got we've never gotten it to anything higher than 10%. We've tried. Um, we haven't we haven't succeeded yet. So at least for now, because we have that historical data to lean on, we have decided that we are not going to spend a ton of time producing like a bunch of net new Tik Tok first content. We think we're better off producing like Facebook and Instagram ad first content that then might port over well to Tik Tok. That could change. Like I I still think there's value into like taking like sprinting at it and seeing if we can get that mix. But that's an example where we made that decision based on the historical data that we do have. Um, not everything you have historical data to like sometimes you just need to trust your gut, right? And be like, I I just don't think kitchen tools are going to work as an acquisition product.

Reza Khadjavi: Tell me more about that one, like the kitchen tools. Like how what's what's the thinking there to know that like it's it's unlikely to scale?

Connor Rolain: It's just a niche product, you know, it's like not everyone is going to want to buy a really expensive set of kitchen tools. That's point number one. Point number two is it actually fits in really nicely with an with an already established funnel of ours, which is our 12 piece set funnel. So like, why would I go build a new acquisition funnel around the kitchen tools when I can just insert this product as an upsell strategically within a funnel that already exists. Like that's going to drive way more acquisition revenue on that product for us than building its own funnel ever is. So it's just like what's that what's that opportunity cost between the two? Um, we know the 12 piece set's our hero product and the six piece set is the next one. So why not just set it up in those funnels that already exist? And like that's probably a better use of our time and and a lower lift than building net new funnels around this product.

Reza Khadjavi: Mhm. Really cool. Connor, you guys have been doing a bunch around, how many people in the world are going to buy wallets? I I feel like you guys joke about this every now and then that like the the the market size for wallets is insane and I feel like you guys will not stop until every one owns a Ridge wallet or what's the

Connor MacDonald: Yeah, well, just some quick math, there's like 300 million people in the US. Half of them are men. So we've got another like 140 million wallets to sell, something like that. We're looking for 100% penetration. Um, but no, we we've thought it obviously wallets are a tough category because one, guys typically only own one and then ours is guaranteed for life. So every time we acquire a new customer, it's actually I think slightly more difficult to acquire the next one. Um, so we've thought a lot about product expansion and category expansion. So the way our business is structured is we have really our three scalable categories. We have everyday carry, we have travel, we have rings, and uh, or we call it jewelry, and then we have hero products within that, wallet, luggage, wedding bands. Um, now what I'll say quickly is I think to a certain degree, there are economies of scale to producing creative. Like if I have a new product, I think the hardest ads to make from a time perspective are probably the first 10. If I need to make five more, it doesn't require 50% more energy. So you want to be at from a business perspective, creating products where you can benefit from economies of scale even at the creative level, for instance. Then you get into like because what you want to avoid is building a bunch of products and all of them need 10 unique ads. And then you're spending the hardest ads to make, you've you've given your test the you've given yourself the task of creating six or seven or eight sets of them. That is not a scalable strategy. So you want as fewer scalable ones. That's what we're focused on. That comes down to having a a decent sized TAM, having good economics, and understanding the funnels and acquisition engines you need to build to support those.

Reza Khadjavi: Super cool.

Connor Rolain: Yeah, we have a we have like we we operate, um, with this goal setting framework called the pyramid of clarity, which is very similar to like OKRs. And we have a we have a strategy this year that is only plant seeds that can turn into giants. And we I developed that strategy because I I noticed that like I felt like a lot of our team's time was getting taken up with with like channel rollouts or just overall tactics that might provide performance, but like probably never going to scale. Like Cody talked about this, I think in a previous episode as well. He's like, I don't want my team spending time trying to roll out a channel that's only going to get us to $1,000 a spend per day. Like we take that strategic lens on everything we do. So like, I'm not going to launch ads around kitchen tools. Do I think we could make kitchen tools work in the ad account? Absolutely. It's a $250 set of kitchen tools. We have the margin, we have the price point. But at the end of the day, like I just doubt that product line is ever going to get above a few thousand dollars per day in spend. So like, why would I not spend that time making the next cookware ad that's going to get us an incremental $200,000 or $300,000 of spend. So we're always that's not just with paid, Reza, but like literally everything we do has to be able to pass through that that strategic lens. If the answer's no, this will never this is not a seed that could turn into a giant, we just won't do it. Even if it could get us like an efficiency win at a small scale.

Reza Khadjavi: Can you talk a bit more about that? What what how do you how do you get to that point to realize that like it would be capped at this kind of scale or spend? What's the what's the steps that you go to try to understand where the limits could be?

Connor Rolain: Yeah. I mean, I think you you have to lean on your historical data a lot, you know, like, um, for us, Tik Tok has never been like a major part of our mix. Um, it's a it's a part of our mix, right? But it's like it's not anything higher than 10% ever. Um, and we never got we've never gotten it to anything higher than 10%. We've tried. Um, we haven't we haven't succeeded yet. So at least for now, because we have that historical data to lean on, we have decided that we are not going to spend a ton of time producing like a bunch of net new Tik Tok first content. We think we're better off producing like Facebook and Instagram ad first content that then might port over well to Tik Tok. That could change. Like I I still think there's value into like taking like sprinting at it and seeing if we can get that mix. But that's an example where we made that decision based on the historical data that we do have. Um, not everything you have historical data to like sometimes you just need to trust your gut, right? And be like, I I just don't think kitchen tools are going to work as an acquisition product.

Reza Khadjavi: Tell me more about that one, like the kitchen tools. Like how what's what's the thinking there to know that like it's it's unlikely to scale?

Connor Rolain: It's just a niche product, you know, it's like not everyone is going to want to buy a really expensive set of kitchen tools. That's point number one. Point number two is it actually fits in really nicely with an with an already established funnel of ours, which is our 12 piece set funnel. So like, why would I go build a new acquisition funnel around the kitchen tools when I can just insert this product as an upsell strategically within a funnel that already exists. Like that's going to drive way more acquisition revenue on that product for us than building its own funnel ever is. So it's just like what's that what's that opportunity cost between the two? Um, we know the 12 piece set's our hero product and the six piece set is the next one. So why not just set it up in those funnels that already exist? And like that's probably a better use of our time and and a lower lift than building net new funnels around this product.

Reza Khadjavi: Mhm. Really cool. Connor, you guys have been doing a bunch around, how many people in the world are going to buy wallets? I I feel like you guys joke about this every now and then that like the the the market size for wallets is insane and I feel like you guys will not stop until every one owns a Ridge wallet or what's the

Connor MacDonald: Yeah, well, just some quick math, there's like 300 million people in the US. Half of them are men. So we've got another like 140 million wallets to sell, something like that. We're looking for 100% penetration. Um, but no, we we've thought it obviously wallets are a tough category because one, guys typically only own one and then ours is guaranteed for life. So every time we acquire a new customer, it's actually I think slightly more difficult to acquire the next one. Um, so we've thought a lot about product expansion and category expansion. So the way our business is structured is we have really our three scalable categories. We have everyday carry, we have travel, we have rings, and uh, or we call it jewelry, and then we have hero products within that, wallet, luggage, wedding bands. Um, now what I'll say quickly is I think to a certain degree, there are economies of scale to producing creative. Like if I have a new product, I think the hardest ads to make from a time perspective are probably the first 10. If I need to make five more, it doesn't require 50% more energy. So you want to be at from a business perspective, creating products where you can benefit from economies of scale even at the creative level, for instance. Then you get into like because what you want to avoid is building a bunch of products and all of them need 10 unique ads. And then you're spending the hardest ads to make, you've you've given your test the you've given yourself the task of creating six or seven or eight sets of them. That is not a scalable strategy. So you want as fewer scalable ones. That's what we're focused on. That comes down to having a a decent sized TAM, having good economics, and understanding the funnels and acquisition engines you need to build to support those.

Reza Khadjavi: Super cool.

Connor Rolain: Yeah, we have a we have like we we operate, um, with this goal setting framework called the pyramid of clarity, which is very similar to like OKRs. And we have a we have a strategy this year that is only plant seeds that can turn into giants. And we I developed that strategy because I I noticed that like I felt like a lot of our team's time was getting taken up with with like channel rollouts or just overall tactics that might provide performance, but like probably never going to scale. Like Cody talked about this, I think in a previous episode as well. He's like, I don't want my team spending time trying to roll out a channel that's only going to get us to $1,000 a spend per day. Like we take that strategic lens on everything we do. So like, I'm not going to launch ads around kitchen tools. Do I think we could make kitchen tools work in the ad account? Absolutely. It's a $250 set of kitchen tools. We have the margin, we have the price point. But at the end of the day, like I just doubt that product line is ever going to get above a few thousand dollars per day in spend. So like, why would I not spend that time making the next cookware ad that's going to get us an incremental $200,000 or $300,000 of spend. So we're always that's not just with paid, Reza, but like literally everything we do has to be able to pass through that that strategic lens. If the answer's no, this will never this is not a seed that could turn into a giant, we just won't do it. Even if it could get us like an efficiency win at a small scale.

Reza Khadjavi: Can you talk a bit more about that? What what how do you how do you get to that point to realize that like it would be capped at this kind of scale or spend? What's the what's the steps that you go to try to understand where the limits could be?

Connor Rolain: Yeah. I mean, I think you you have to lean on your historical data a lot, you know, like, um, for us, Tik Tok has never been like a major part of our mix. Um, it's a it's a part of our mix, right? But it's like it's not anything higher than 10% ever. Um, and we never got we've never gotten it to anything higher than 10%. We've tried. Um, we haven't we haven't succeeded yet. So at least for now, because we have that historical data to lean on, we have decided that we are not going to spend a ton of time producing like a bunch of net new Tik Tok first content. We think we're better off producing like Facebook and Instagram ad first content that then might port over well to Tik Tok. That could change. Like I I still think there's value into like taking like sprinting at it and seeing if we can get that mix. But that's an example where we made that decision based on the historical data that we do have. Um, not everything you have historical data to like sometimes you just need to trust your gut, right? And be like, I I just don't think kitchen tools are going to work as an acquisition product.

Reza Khadjavi: Tell me more about that one, like the kitchen tools. Like how what's what's the thinking there to know that like it's it's unlikely to scale?

Connor Rolain: It's just a niche product, you know, it's like not everyone is going to want to buy a really expensive set of kitchen tools. That's point number one. Point number two is it actually fits in really nicely with an with an already established funnel of ours, which is our 12 piece set funnel. So like, why would I go build a new acquisition funnel around the kitchen tools when I can just insert this product as an upsell strategically within a funnel that already exists. Like that's going to drive way more acquisition revenue on that product for us than building its own funnel ever is. So it's just like what's that what's that opportunity cost between the two? Um, we know the 12 piece set's our hero product and the six piece set is the next one. So why not just set it up in those funnels that already exist? And like that's probably a better use of our time and and a lower lift than building net new funnels around this product.

Reza Khadjavi: Mhm. Really cool. Connor, you guys have been doing a bunch around, how many people in the world are going to buy wallets? I I feel like you guys joke about this every now and then that like the the the market size for wallets is insane and I feel like you guys will not stop until every one owns a Ridge wallet or what's the

Connor MacDonald: Yeah, well, just some quick math, there's like 300 million people in the US. Half of them are men. So we've got another like 140 million wallets to sell, something like that. We're looking for 100% penetration. Um, but no, we we've thought it obviously wallets are a tough category because one, guys typically only own one and then ours is guaranteed for life. So every time we acquire a new customer, it's actually I think slightly more difficult to acquire the next one. Um, so we've thought a lot about product expansion and category expansion. So the way our business is structured is we have really our three scalable categories. We have everyday carry, we have travel, we have rings, and uh, or we call it jewelry, and then we have hero products within that, wallet, luggage, wedding bands. Um, now what I'll say quickly is I think to a certain degree, there are economies of scale to producing creative. Like if I have a new product, I think the hardest ads to make from a time perspective are probably the first 10. If I need to make five more, it doesn't require 50% more energy. So you want to be at from a business perspective, creating products where you can benefit from economies of scale even at the creative level, for instance. Then you get into like because what you want to avoid is building a bunch of products and all of them need 10 unique ads. And then you're spending the hardest ads to make, you've you've given your test the you've given yourself the task of creating six or seven or eight sets of them. That is not a scalable strategy. So you want as fewer scalable ones. That's what we're focused on. That comes down to having a a decent sized TAM, having good economics, and understanding the funnels and acquisition engines you need to build to support those.

Reza Khadjavi: Super cool.

Connor Rolain: Yeah, we have a we have like we we operate, um, with this goal setting framework called the pyramid of clarity, which is very similar to like OKRs. And we have a we have a strategy this year that is only plant seeds that can turn into giants. And we I developed that strategy because I I noticed that like I felt like a lot of our team's time was getting taken up with with like channel rollouts or just overall tactics that might provide performance, but like probably never going to scale. Like Cody talked about this, I think in a previous episode as well. He's like, I don't want my team spending time trying to roll out a channel that's only going to get us to $1,000 a spend per day. Like we take that strategic lens on everything we do. So like, I'm not going to launch ads around kitchen tools. Do I think we could make kitchen tools work in the ad account? Absolutely. It's a $250 set of kitchen tools. We have the margin, we have the price point. But at the end of the day, like I just doubt that product line is ever going to get above a few thousand dollars per day in spend. So like, why would I not spend that time making the next cookware ad that's going to get us an incremental $200,000 or $300,000 of spend. So we're always that's not just with paid, Reza, but like literally everything we do has to be able to pass through that that strategic lens. If the answer's no, this will never this is not a seed that could turn into a giant, we just won't do it. Even if it could get us like an efficiency win at a small scale.

Reza Khadjavi: Can you talk a bit more about that? What what how do you how do you get to that point to realize that like it would be capped at this kind of scale or spend? What's the what's the steps that you go to try to understand where the limits could be?

Connor Rolain: Yeah. I mean, I think you you have to lean on your historical data a lot, you know, like, um, for us, Tik Tok has never been like a major part of our mix. Um, it's a it's a part of our mix, right? But it's like it's not anything higher than 10% ever. Um, and we never got we've never gotten it to anything higher than 10%. We've tried. Um, we haven't we haven't succeeded yet. So at least for now, because we have that historical data to lean on, we have decided that we are not going to spend a ton of time producing like a bunch of net new Tik Tok first content. We think we're better off producing like Facebook and Instagram ad first content that then might port over well to Tik Tok. That could change. Like I I still think there's value into like taking like sprinting at it and seeing if we can get that mix. But that's an example where we made that decision based on the historical data that we do have. Um, not everything you have historical data to like sometimes you just need to trust your gut, right? And be like, I I just don't think kitchen tools are going to work as an acquisition product.

Reza Khadjavi: Tell me more about that one, like the kitchen tools. Like how what's what's the thinking there to know that like it's it's unlikely to scale?

Connor Rolain: It's just a niche product, you know, it's like not everyone is going to want to buy a really expensive set of kitchen tools. That's point number one. Point number two is it actually fits in really nicely with an with an already established funnel of ours, which is our 12 piece set funnel. So like, why would I go build a new acquisition funnel around the kitchen tools when I can just insert this product as an upsell strategically within a funnel that already exists. Like that's going to drive way more acquisition revenue on that product for us than building its own funnel ever is. So it's just like what's that what's that opportunity cost between the two? Um, we know the 12 piece set's our hero product and the six piece set is the next one. So why not just set it up in those funnels that already exist? And like that's probably a better use of our time and and a lower lift than building net new funnels around this product.

Reza Khadjavi: Mhm. Really cool. Connor, you guys have been doing a bunch around, how many people in the world are going to buy wallets? I I feel like you guys joke about this every now and then that like the the the market size for wallets is insane and I feel like you guys will not stop until every one owns a Ridge wallet or what's the

Connor MacDonald: Yeah, well, just some quick math, there's like 300 million people in the US. Half of them are men. So we've got another like 140 million wallets to sell, something like that. We're looking for 100% penetration. Um, but no, we we've thought it obviously wallets are a tough category because one, guys typically only own one and then ours is guaranteed for life. So every time we acquire a new customer, it's actually I think slightly more difficult to acquire the next one. Um, so we've thought a lot about product expansion and category expansion. So the way our business is structured is we have really our three scalable categories. We have everyday carry, we have travel, we have rings, and uh, or we call it jewelry, and then we have hero products within that, wallet, luggage, wedding bands. Um, now what I'll say quickly is I think to a certain degree, there are economies of scale to producing creative. Like if I have a new product, I think the hardest ads to make from a time perspective are probably the first 10. If I need to make five more, it doesn't require 50% more energy. So you want to be at from a business perspective, creating products where you can benefit from economies of scale even at the creative level, for instance. Then you get into like because what you want to avoid is building a bunch of products and all of them need 10 unique ads. And then you're spending the hardest ads to make, you've you've given your test the you've given yourself the task of creating six or seven or eight sets of them. That is not a scalable strategy. So you want as fewer scalable ones. That's what we're focused on. That comes down to having a a decent sized TAM, having good economics, and understanding the funnels and acquisition engines you need to build to support those.

Reza Khadjavi: Super cool.

Connor Rolain: Yeah, we have a we have like we we operate, um, with this goal setting framework called the pyramid of clarity, which is very similar to like OKRs. And we have a we have a strategy this year that is only plant seeds that can turn into giants. And we I developed that strategy because I I noticed that like I felt like a lot of our team's time was getting taken up with with like channel rollouts or just overall tactics that might provide performance, but like probably never going to scale. Like Cody talked about this, I think in a previous episode as well. He's like, I don't want my team spending time trying to roll out a channel that's only going to get us to $1,000 a spend per day. Like we take that strategic lens on everything we do. So like, I'm not going to launch ads around kitchen tools. Do I think we could make kitchen tools work in the ad account? Absolutely. It's a $250 set of kitchen tools. We have the margin, we have the price point. But at the end of the day, like I just doubt that product line is ever going to get above a few thousand dollars per day in spend. So like, why would I not spend that time making the next cookware ad that's going to get us an incremental $200,000 or $300,000 of spend. So we're always that's not just with paid, Reza, but like literally everything we do has to be able to pass through that that strategic lens. If the answer's no, this will never this is not a seed that could turn into a giant, we just won't do it. Even if it could get us like an efficiency win at a small scale.

Reza Khadjavi: Can you talk a bit more about that? What what how do you how do you get to that point to realize that like it would be capped at this kind of scale or spend? What's the what's the steps that you go to try to understand where the limits could be?

Connor Rolain: Yeah. I mean, I think you you have to lean on your historical data a lot, you know, like, um, for us, Tik Tok has never been like a major part of our mix. Um, it's a it's a part of our mix, right? But it's like it's not anything higher than 10% ever. Um, and we never got we've never gotten it to anything higher than 10%. We've tried. Um, we haven't we haven't succeeded yet. So at least for now, because we have that historical data to lean on, we have decided that we are not going to spend a ton of time producing like a bunch of net new Tik Tok first content. We think we're better off producing like Facebook and Instagram ad first content that then might port over well to Tik Tok. That could change. Like I I still think there's value into like taking like sprinting at it and seeing if we can get that mix. But that's an example where we made that decision based on the historical data that we do have. Um, not everything you have historical data to like sometimes you just need to trust your gut, right? And be like, I I just don't think kitchen tools are going to work as an acquisition product.

Reza Khadjavi: Tell me more about that one, like the kitchen tools. Like how what's what's the thinking there to know that like it's it's unlikely to scale?

Connor Rolain: It's just a niche product, you know, it's like not everyone is going to want to buy a really expensive set of kitchen tools. That's point number one. Point number two is it actually fits in really nicely with an with an already established funnel of ours, which is our 12 piece set funnel. So like, why would I go build a new acquisition funnel around the kitchen tools when I can just insert this product as an upsell strategically within a funnel that already exists. Like that's going to drive way more acquisition revenue on that product for us than building its own funnel ever is. So it's just like what's that what's that opportunity cost between the two? Um, we know the 12 piece set's our hero product and the six piece set is the next one. So why not just set it up in those funnels that already exist? And like that's probably a better use of our time and and a lower lift than building net new funnels around this product.

Reza Khadjavi: Mhm. Really cool. Connor, you guys have been doing a bunch around, how many people in the world are going to buy wallets? I I feel like you guys joke about this every now and then that like the the the market size for wallets is insane and I feel like you guys will not stop until every one owns a Ridge wallet or what's the

Connor MacDonald: Yeah, well, just some quick math, there's like 300 million people in the US. Half of them are men. So we've got another like 140 million wallets to sell, something like that. We're looking for 100% penetration. Um, but no, we we've thought it obviously wallets are a tough category because one, guys typically only own one and then ours is guaranteed for life. So every time we acquire a new customer, it's actually I think slightly more difficult to acquire the next one. Um, so we've thought a lot about product expansion and category expansion. So the way our business is structured is we have really our three scalable categories. We have everyday carry, we have travel, we have rings, and uh, or we call it jewelry, and then we have hero products within that, wallet, luggage, wedding bands. Um, now what I'll say quickly is I think to a certain degree, there are economies of scale to producing creative. Like if I have a new product, I think the hardest ads to make from a time perspective are probably the first 10. If I need to make five more, it doesn't require 50% more energy. So you want to be at from a business perspective, creating products where you can benefit from economies of scale even at the creative level, for instance. Then you get into like because what you want to avoid is building a bunch of products and all of them need 10 unique ads. And then you're spending the hardest ads to make, you've you've given your test the you've given yourself the task of creating six or seven or eight sets of them. That is not a scalable strategy. So you want as fewer scalable ones. That's what we're focused on. That comes down to having a a decent sized TAM, having good economics, and understanding the funnels and acquisition engines you need to build to support those.

Reza Khadjavi: Super cool.

Connor Rolain: Yeah, we have a we have like we we operate, um, with this goal setting framework called the pyramid of clarity, which is very similar to like OKRs. And we have a we have a strategy this year that is only plant seeds that can turn into giants. And we I developed that strategy because I I noticed that like I felt like a lot of our team's time was getting taken up with with like channel rollouts or just overall tactics that might provide performance, but like probably never going to scale. Like Cody talked about this, I think in a previous episode as well. He's like, I don't want my team spending time trying to roll out a channel that's only going to get us to $1,000 a spend per day. Like we take that strategic lens on everything we do. So like, I'm not going to launch ads around kitchen tools. Do I think we could make kitchen tools work in the ad account? Absolutely. It's a $250 set of kitchen tools. We have the margin, we have the price point. But at the end of the day, like I just doubt that product line is ever going to get above a few thousand dollars per day in spend. So like, why would I not spend that time making the next cookware ad that's going to get us an incremental $200,000 or $300,000 of spend. So we're always that's not just with paid, Reza, but like literally everything we do has to be able to pass through that that strategic lens. If the answer's no, this will never this is not a seed that could turn into a giant, we just won't do it. Even if it could get us like an efficiency win at a small scale.

Reza Khadjavi: Can you talk a bit more about that? What what how do you how do you get to that point to realize that like it would be capped at this kind of scale or spend? What's the what's the steps that you go to try to understand where the limits could be?

Connor Rolain: Yeah. I mean, I think you you have to lean on your historical data a lot, you know, like, um, for us, Tik Tok has never been like a major part of our mix. Um, it's a it's a part of our mix, right? But it's like it's not anything higher than 10% ever. Um, and we never got we've never gotten it to anything higher than 10%. We've tried. Um, we haven't we haven't succeeded yet. So at least for now, because we have that historical data to lean on, we have decided that we are not going to spend a ton of time producing like a bunch of net new Tik Tok first content. We think we're better off producing like Facebook and Instagram ad first content that then might port over well to Tik Tok. That could change. Like I I still think there's value into like taking like sprinting at it and seeing if we can get that mix. But that's an example where we made that decision based on the historical data that we do have. Um, not everything you have historical data to like sometimes you just need to trust your gut, right? And be like, I I just don't think kitchen tools are going to work as an acquisition product.

Reza Khadjavi: Tell me more about that one, like the kitchen tools. Like how what's what's the thinking there to know that like it's it's unlikely to scale?

Connor Rolain: It's just a niche product, you know, it's like not everyone is going to want to buy a really expensive set of kitchen tools. That's point number one. Point number two is it actually fits in really nicely with an with an already established funnel of ours, which is our 12 piece set funnel. So like, why would I go build a new acquisition funnel around the kitchen tools when I can just insert this product as an upsell strategically within a funnel that already exists. Like that's going to drive way more acquisition revenue on that product for us than building its own funnel ever is. So it's just like what's that what's that opportunity cost between the two? Um, we know the 12 piece set's our hero product and the six piece set is the next one. So why not just set it up in those funnels that already exist? And like that's probably a better use of our time and and a lower lift than building net new funnels around this product.

Reza Khadjavi: Mhm. Really cool. Connor, you guys have been doing a bunch around, how many people in the world are going to buy wallets? I I feel like you guys joke about this every now and then that like the the the market size for wallets is insane and I feel like you guys will not stop until every one owns a Ridge wallet or what's the

Connor MacDonald: Yeah, well, just some quick math, there's like 300 million people in the US. Half of them are men. So we've got another like 140 million wallets to sell, something like that. We're looking for 100% penetration. Um, but no, we we've thought it obviously wallets are a tough category because one, guys typically only own one and then ours is guaranteed for life. So every time we acquire a new customer, it's actually I think slightly more difficult to acquire the next one. Um, so we've thought a lot about product expansion and category expansion. So the way our business is structured is we have really our three scalable categories. We have everyday carry, we have travel, we have rings, and uh, or we call it jewelry, and then we have hero products within that, wallet, luggage, wedding bands. Um, now what I'll say quickly is I think to a certain degree, there are economies of scale to producing creative. Like if I have a new product, I think the hardest ads to make from a time perspective are probably the first 10. If I need to make five more, it doesn't require 50% more energy. So you want to be at from a business perspective, creating products where you can benefit from economies of scale even at the creative level, for instance. Then you get into like because what you want to avoid is building a bunch of products and all of them need 10 unique ads. And then you're spending the hardest ads to make, you've you've given your test the you've given yourself the task of creating six or seven or eight sets of them. That is not a scalable strategy. So you want as fewer scalable ones. That's what we're focused on. That comes down to having a a decent sized TAM, having good economics, and understanding the funnels and acquisition engines you need to build to support those.

Reza Khadjavi: Super cool.

Connor Rolain: Yeah, we have a we have like we we operate, um, with this goal setting framework called the pyramid of clarity, which is very similar to like OKRs. And we have a we have a strategy this year that is only plant seeds that can turn into giants. And we I developed that strategy because I I noticed that like I felt like a lot of our team's time was getting taken up with with like channel rollouts or just overall tactics that might provide performance, but like probably never going to scale. Like Cody talked about this, I think in a previous episode as well. He's like, I don't want my team spending time trying to roll out a channel that's only going to get us to $1,000 a spend per day. Like we take that strategic lens on everything we do. So like, I'm not going to launch ads around kitchen tools. Do I think we could make kitchen tools work in the ad account? Absolutely. It's a $250 set of kitchen tools. We have the margin, we have the price point. But at the end of the day, like I just doubt that product line is ever going to get above a few thousand dollars per day in spend. So like, why would I not spend that time making the next cookware ad that's going to get us an incremental $200,000 or $300,000 of spend. So we're always that's not just with paid, Reza, but like literally everything we do has to be able to pass through that that strategic lens. If the answer's no, this will never this is not a seed that could turn into a giant, we just won't do it. Even if it could get us like an efficiency win at a small scale.

Reza Khadjavi: Can you talk a bit more about that? What what how do you how do you get to that point to realize that like it would be capped at this kind of scale or spend? What's the what's the steps that you go to try to understand where the limits could be?

Connor Rolain: Yeah. I mean, I think you you have to lean on your historical data a lot, you know, like, um, for us, Tik Tok has never been like a major part of our mix. Um, it's a it's a part of our mix, right? But it's like it's not anything higher than 10% ever. Um, and we never got we've never gotten it to anything higher than 10%. We've tried. Um, we haven't we haven't succeeded yet. So at least for now, because we have that historical data to lean on, we have decided that we are not going to spend a ton of time producing like a bunch of net new Tik Tok first content. We think we're better off producing like Facebook and Instagram ad first content that then might port over well to Tik Tok. That could change. Like I I still think there's value into like taking like sprinting at it and seeing if we can get that mix. But that's an example where we made that decision based on the historical data that we do have. Um, not everything you have historical data to like sometimes you just need to trust your gut, right? And be like, I I just don't think kitchen tools are going to work as an acquisition product.

Reza Khadjavi: Tell me more about that one, like the kitchen tools. Like how what's what's the thinking there to know that like it's it's unlikely to scale?

Connor Rolain: It's just a niche product, you know, it's like not everyone is going to want to buy a really expensive set of kitchen tools. That's point number one. Point number two is it actually fits in really nicely with an with an already established funnel of ours, which is our 12 piece set funnel. So like, why would I go build a new acquisition funnel around the kitchen tools when I can just insert this product as an upsell strategically within a funnel that already exists. Like that's going to drive way more acquisition revenue on that product for us than building its own funnel ever is. So it's just like what's that what's that opportunity cost between the two? Um, we know the 12 piece set's our hero product and the six piece set is the next one. So why not just set it up in those funnels that already exist? And like that's probably a better use of our time and and a lower lift than building net new funnels around this product.

Reza Khadjavi: Mhm. Really cool. Connor, you guys have been doing a bunch around, how many people in the world are going to buy wallets? I I feel like you guys joke about this every now and then that like the the the market size for wallets is insane and I feel like you guys will not stop until every one owns a Ridge wallet or what's the

Connor MacDonald: Yeah, well, just some quick math, there's like 300 million people in the US. Half of them are men. So we've got another like 140 million wallets to sell, something like that. We're looking for 100% penetration. Um, but no, we we've thought it obviously wallets are a tough category because one, guys typically only own one and then ours is guaranteed for life. So every time we acquire a new customer, it's actually I think slightly more difficult to acquire the next one. Um, so we've thought a lot about product expansion and category expansion. So the way our business is structured is we have really our three scalable categories. We have everyday carry, we have travel, we have rings, and uh, or we call it jewelry, and then we have hero products within that, wallet, luggage, wedding bands. Um, now what I'll say quickly is I think to a certain degree, there are economies of scale to producing creative. Like if I have a new product, I think the hardest ads to make from a time perspective are probably the first 10. If I need to make five more, it doesn't require 50% more energy. So you want to be at from a business perspective, creating products where you can benefit from economies of scale even at the creative level, for instance. Then you get into like because what you want to avoid is building a bunch of products and all of them need 10 unique ads. And then you're spending the hardest ads to make, you've you've given your test the you've given yourself the task of creating six or seven or eight sets of them. That is not a scalable strategy. So you want as fewer scalable ones. That's what we're focused on. That comes down to having a a decent sized TAM, having good economics, and understanding the funnels and acquisition engines you need to build to support those.

Reza Khadjavi: Super cool.

Connor Rolain: Yeah, we have a we have like we we operate, um, with this goal setting framework called the pyramid of clarity, which is very similar to like OKRs. And we have a we have a strategy this year that is only plant seeds that can turn into giants. And we I developed that strategy because I I noticed that like I felt like a lot of our team's time was getting taken up with with like channel rollouts or just overall tactics that might provide performance, but like probably never going to scale. Like Cody talked about this, I think in a previous episode as well. He's like, I don't want my team spending time trying to roll out a channel that's only going to get us to $1,000 a spend per day. Like we take that strategic lens on everything we do. So like, I'm not going to launch ads around kitchen tools. Do I think we could make kitchen tools work in the ad account? Absolutely. It's a $250 set of kitchen tools. We have the margin, we have the price point. But at the end of the day, like I just doubt that product line is ever going to get above a few thousand dollars per day in spend. So like, why would I not spend that time making the next cookware ad that's going to get us an incremental $200,000 or $300,000 of spend. So we're always that's not just with paid, Reza, but like literally everything we do has to be able to pass through that that strategic lens. If the answer's no, this will never this is not a seed that could turn into a giant, we just won't do it. Even if it could get us like an efficiency win at a small scale.

Reza Khadjavi: Can you talk a bit more about that? What what how do you how do you get to that point to realize that like it would be capped at this kind of scale or spend? What's the what's the steps that you go to try to understand where the limits could be?

Connor Rolain: Yeah. I mean, I think you you have to lean on your historical data a lot, you know, like, um, for us, Tik Tok has never been like a major part of our mix. Um, it's a it's a part of our mix, right? But it's like it's not anything higher than 10% ever. Um, and we never got we've never gotten it to anything higher than 10%. We've tried. Um, we haven't we haven't succeeded yet. So at least for now, because we have that historical data to lean on, we have decided that we are not going to spend a ton of time producing like a bunch of net new Tik Tok first content. We think we're better off producing like Facebook and Instagram ad first content that then might port over well to Tik Tok. That could change. Like I I still think there's value into like taking like sprinting at it and seeing if we can get that mix. But that's an example where we made that decision based on the historical data that we do have. Um, not everything you have historical data to like sometimes you just need to trust your gut, right? And be like, I I just don't think kitchen tools are going to work as an acquisition product.

Reza Khadjavi: Tell me more about that one, like the kitchen tools. Like how what's what's the thinking there to know that like it's it's unlikely to scale?

Connor Rolain: It's just a niche product, you know, it's like not everyone is going to want to buy a really expensive set of kitchen tools. That's point number one. Point number two is it actually fits in really nicely with an with an already established funnel of ours, which is our 12 piece set funnel. So like, why would I go build a new acquisition funnel around the kitchen tools when I can just insert this product as an upsell strategically within a funnel that already exists. Like that's going to drive way more acquisition revenue on that product for us than building its own funnel ever is. So it's just like what's that what's that opportunity cost between the two? Um, we know the 12 piece set's our hero product and the six piece set is the next one. So why not just set it up in those funnels that already exist? And like that's probably a better use of our time and and a lower lift than building net new funnels around this product.

Reza Khadjavi: Mhm. Really cool. Connor, you guys have been doing a bunch around, how many people in the world are going to buy wallets? I I feel like you guys joke about this every now and then that like the the the market size for wallets is insane and I feel like you guys will not stop until every one owns a Ridge wallet or what's the

Connor MacDonald: Yeah, well, just some quick math, there's like 300 million people in the US. Half of them are men. So we've got another like 140 million wallets to sell, something like that. We're looking for 100% penetration. Um, but no, we we've thought it obviously wallets are a tough category because one, guys typically only own one and then ours is guaranteed for life. So every time we acquire a new customer, it's actually I think slightly more difficult to acquire the next one. Um, so we've thought a lot about product expansion and category expansion. So the way our business is structured is we have really our three scalable categories. We have everyday carry, we have travel, we have rings, and uh, or we call it jewelry, and then we have hero products within that, wallet, luggage, wedding bands. Um, now what I'll say quickly is I think to a certain degree, there are economies of scale to producing creative. Like if I have a new product, I think the hardest ads to make from a time perspective are probably the first 10. If I need to make five more, it doesn't require 50% more energy. So you want to be at from a business perspective, creating products where you can benefit from economies of scale even at the creative level, for instance. Then you get into like because what you want to avoid is building a bunch of products and all of them need 10 unique ads. And then you're spending the hardest ads to make, you've you've given your test the you've given yourself the task of creating six or seven or eight sets of them. That is not a scalable strategy. So you want as fewer scalable ones. That's what we're focused on. That comes down to having a a decent sized TAM, having good economics, and understanding the funnels and acquisition engines you need to build to support those.

Reza Khadjavi: Super cool.

Connor Rolain: Yeah, we have a we have like we we operate, um, with this goal setting framework called the pyramid of clarity, which is very similar to like OKRs. And we have a we have a strategy this year that is only plant seeds that can turn into giants. And we I developed that strategy because I I noticed that like I felt like a lot of our team's time was getting taken up with with like channel rollouts or just overall tactics that might provide performance, but like probably never going to scale. Like Cody talked about this, I think in a previous episode as well. He's like, I don't want my team spending time trying to roll out a channel that's only going to get us to $1,000 a spend per day. Like we take that strategic lens on everything we do. So like, I'm not going to launch ads around kitchen tools. Do I think we could make kitchen tools work in the ad account? Absolutely. It's a $250 set of kitchen tools. We have the margin, we have the price point. But at the end of the day, like I just doubt that product line is ever going to get above a few thousand dollars per day in spend. So like, why would I not spend that time making the next cookware ad that's going to get us an incremental $200,000 or $300,000 of spend. So we're always that's not just with paid, Reza, but like literally everything we do has to be able to pass through that that strategic lens. If the answer's no, this will never this is not a seed that could turn into a giant, we just won't do it. Even if it could get us like an efficiency win at a small scale.

Reza Khadjavi: Can you talk a bit more about that? What what how do you how do you get to that point to realize that like it would be capped at this kind of scale or spend? What's the what's the steps that you go to try to understand where the limits could be?

Connor Rolain: Yeah. I mean, I think you you have to lean on your historical data a lot, you know, like, um, for us, Tik Tok has never been like a major part of our mix. Um, it's a it's a part of our mix, right? But it's like it's not anything higher than 10% ever. Um, and we never got we've never gotten it to anything higher than 10%. We've tried. Um, we haven't we haven't succeeded yet. So at least for now, because we have that historical data to lean on, we have decided that we are not going to spend a ton of time producing like a bunch of net new Tik Tok first content. We think we're better off producing like Facebook and Instagram ad first content that then might port over well to Tik Tok. That could change. Like I I still think there's value into like taking like sprinting at it and seeing if we can get that mix. But that's an example where we made that decision based on the historical data that we do have. Um, not everything you have historical data to like sometimes you just need to trust your gut, right? And be like, I I just don't think kitchen tools are going to work as an acquisition product.

Reza Khadjavi: Tell me more about that one, like the kitchen tools. Like how what's what's the thinking there to know that like it's it's unlikely to scale?

Connor Rolain: It's just a niche product, you know, it's like not everyone is going to want to buy a really expensive set of kitchen tools. That's point number one. Point number two is it actually fits in really nicely with an with an already established funnel of ours, which is our 12 piece set funnel. So like, why would I go build a new acquisition funnel around the kitchen tools when I can just insert this product as an upsell strategically within a funnel that already exists. Like that's going to drive way more acquisition revenue on that product for us than building its own funnel ever is. So it's just like what's that what's that opportunity cost between the two? Um, we know the 12 piece set's our hero product and the six piece set is the next one. So why not just set it up in those funnels that already exist? And like that's probably a better use of our time and and a lower lift than building net new funnels around this product.

Reza Khadjavi: Mhm. Really cool. Connor, you guys have been doing a bunch around, how many people in the world are going to buy wallets? I I feel like you guys joke about this every now and then that like the the the market size for wallets is insane and I feel like you guys will not stop until every one owns a Ridge wallet or what's the

Connor MacDonald: Yeah, well, just some quick math, there's like 300 million people in the US. Half of them are men. So we've got another like 140 million wallets to sell, something like that. We're looking for 100% penetration. Um, but no, we we've thought it obviously wallets are a tough category because one, guys typically only own one and then ours is guaranteed for life. So every time we acquire a new customer, it's actually I think slightly more difficult to acquire the next one. Um, so we've thought a lot about product expansion and category expansion. So the way our business is structured is we have really our three scalable categories. We have everyday carry, we have travel, we have rings, and uh, or we call it jewelry, and then we have hero products within that, wallet, luggage, wedding bands. Um, now what I'll say quickly is I think to a certain degree, there are economies of scale to producing creative. Like if I have a new product, I think the hardest ads to make from a time perspective are probably the first 10. If I need to make five more, it doesn't require 50% more energy. So you want to be at from a business perspective, creating products where you can benefit from economies of scale even at the creative level, for instance. Then you get into like because what you want to avoid is building a bunch of products and all of them need 10 unique ads. And then you're spending the hardest ads to make, you've you've given your test the you've given yourself the task of creating six or seven or eight sets of them. That is not a scalable strategy. So you want as fewer scalable ones. That's what we're focused on. That comes down to having a a decent sized TAM, having good economics, and understanding the funnels and acquisition engines you need to build to support those.

Reza Khadjavi: Super cool.

Connor Rolain: Yeah, we have a we have like we we operate, um, with this goal setting framework called the pyramid of clarity, which is very similar to like OKRs. And we have a we have a strategy this year that is only plant seeds that can turn into giants. And we I developed that strategy because I I noticed that like I felt like a lot of our team's time was getting taken up with with like channel rollouts or just overall tactics that might provide performance, but like probably never going to scale. Like Cody talked about this, I think in a previous episode as well. He's like, I don't want my team spending time trying to roll out a channel that's only going to get us to $1,000 a spend per day. Like we take that strategic lens on everything we do. So like, I'm not going to launch ads around kitchen tools. Do I think we could make kitchen tools work in the ad account? Absolutely. It's a $250 set of kitchen tools. We have the margin, we have the price point. But at the end of the day, like I just doubt that product line is ever going to get above a few thousand dollars per day in spend. So like, why would I not spend that time making the next cookware ad that's going to get us an incremental $200,000 or $300,000 of spend. So we're always that's not just with paid, Reza, but like literally everything we do has to be able to pass through that that strategic lens. If the answer's no, this will never this is not a seed that could turn into a giant, we just won't do it. Even if it could get us like an efficiency win at a small scale.

Reza Khadjavi: Can you talk a bit more about that? What what how do you how do you get to that point to realize that like it would be capped at this kind of scale or spend? What's the what's the steps that you go to try to understand where the limits could be?

Connor Rolain: Yeah. I mean, I think you you have to lean on your historical data a lot, you know, like, um, for us, Tik Tok has never been like a major part of our mix. Um, it's a it's a part of our mix, right? But it's like it's not anything higher than 10% ever. Um, and we never got we've never gotten it to anything higher than 10%. We've tried. Um, we haven't we haven't succeeded yet. So at least for now, because we have that historical data to lean on, we have decided that we are not going to spend a ton of time producing like a bunch of net new Tik Tok first content. We think we're better off producing like Facebook and Instagram ad first content that then might port over well to Tik Tok. That could change. Like I I still think there's value into like taking like sprinting at it and seeing if we can get that mix. But that's an example where we made that decision based on the historical data that we do have. Um, not everything you have historical data to like sometimes you just need to trust your gut, right? And be like, I I just don't think kitchen tools are going to work as an acquisition product.

Reza Khadjavi: Tell me more about that one, like the kitchen tools. Like how what's what's the thinking there to know that like it's it's unlikely to scale?

Connor Rolain: It's just a niche product, you know, it's like not everyone is going to want to buy a really expensive set of kitchen tools. That's point number one. Point number two is it actually fits in really nicely with an with an already established funnel of ours, which is our 12 piece set funnel. So like, why would I go build a new acquisition funnel around the kitchen tools when I can just insert this product as an upsell strategically within a funnel that already exists. Like that's going to drive way more acquisition revenue on that product for us than building its own funnel ever is. So it's just like what's that what's that opportunity cost between the two? Um, we know the 12 piece set's our hero product and the six piece set is the next one. So why not just set it up in those funnels that already exist? And like that's probably a better use of our time and and a lower lift than building net new funnels around this product.

Reza Khadjavi: Mhm. Really cool. Connor, you guys have been doing a bunch around, how many people in the world are going to buy wallets? I I feel like you guys joke about this every now and then that like the the the market size for wallets is insane and I feel like you guys will not stop until every one owns a Ridge wallet or what's the

Connor MacDonald: Yeah, well, just some quick math, there's like 300 million people in the US. Half of them are men. So we've got another like 140 million wallets to sell, something like that. We're looking for 100% penetration. Um, but no, we we've thought it obviously wallets are a tough category because one, guys typically only own one and then ours is guaranteed for life. So every time we acquire a new customer, it's actually I think slightly more difficult to acquire the next one. Um, so we've thought a lot about product expansion and category expansion. So the way our business is structured is we have really our three scalable categories. We have everyday carry, we have travel, we have rings, and uh, or we call it jewelry, and then we have hero products within that, wallet, luggage, wedding bands. Um, now what I'll say quickly is I think to a certain degree, there are economies of scale to producing creative. Like if I have a new product, I think the hardest ads to make from a time perspective are probably the first 10. If I need to make five more, it doesn't require 50% more energy. So you want to be at from a business perspective, creating products where you can benefit from economies of scale even at the creative level, for instance. Then you get into like because what you want to avoid is building a bunch of products and all of them need 10 unique ads. And then you're spending the hardest ads to make, you've you've given your test the you've given yourself the task of creating six or seven or eight sets of them. That is not a scalable strategy. So you want as fewer scalable ones. That's what we're focused on. That comes down to having a a decent sized TAM, having good economics, and understanding the funnels and acquisition engines you need to build to support those.

Reza Khadjavi: Super cool.

Connor Rolain: Yeah, we have a we have like we we operate, um, with this goal setting framework called the pyramid of clarity, which is very similar to like OKRs. And we have a we have a strategy this year that is only plant seeds that can turn into giants. And we I developed that strategy because I I noticed that like I felt like a lot of our team's time was getting taken up with with like channel rollouts or just overall tactics that might provide performance, but like probably never going to scale. Like Cody talked about this, I think in a previous episode as well. He's like, I don't want my team spending time trying to roll out a channel that's only going to get us to $1,000 a spend per day. Like we take that strategic lens on everything we do. So like, I'm not going to launch ads around kitchen tools. Do I think we could make kitchen tools work in the ad account? Absolutely. It's a $250 set of kitchen tools. We have the margin, we have the price point. But at the end of the day, like I just doubt that product line is ever going to get above a few thousand dollars per day in spend. So like, why would I not spend that time making the next cookware ad that's going to get us an incremental $200,000 or $300,000 of spend. So we're always that's not just with paid, Reza, but like literally everything we do has to be able to pass through that that strategic lens. If the answer's no, this will never this is not a seed that could turn into a giant, we just won't do it. Even if it could get us like an efficiency win at a small scale.

Reza Khadjavi: Can you talk a bit more about that? What what how do you how do you get to that point to realize that like it would be capped at this kind of scale or spend? What's the what's the steps that you go to try to understand where the limits could be?

Connor Rolain: Yeah. I mean, I think you you have to lean on your historical data a lot, you know, like, um, for us, Tik Tok has never been like a major part of our mix. Um, it's a it's a part of our mix, right? But it's like it's not anything higher than 10% ever. Um, and we never got we've never gotten it to anything higher than 10%. We've tried. Um, we haven't we haven't succeeded yet. So at least for now, because we have that historical data to lean on, we have decided that we are not going to spend a ton of time producing like a bunch of net new Tik Tok first content. We think we're better off producing like Facebook and Instagram ad first content that then might port over well to Tik Tok. That could change. Like I I still think there's value into like taking like sprinting at it and seeing if we can get that mix. But that's an example where we made that decision based on the historical data that we do have. Um, not everything you have historical data to like sometimes you just need to trust your gut, right? And be like, I I just don't think kitchen tools are going to work as an acquisition product.

Reza Khadjavi: Tell me more about that one, like the kitchen tools. Like how what's what's the thinking there to know that like it's it's unlikely to scale?

Connor Rolain: It's just a niche product, you know, it's like not everyone is going to want to buy a really expensive set of kitchen tools. That's point number one. Point number two is it actually fits in really nicely with an with an already established funnel of ours, which is our 12 piece set funnel. So like, why would I go build a new acquisition funnel around the kitchen tools when I can just insert this product as an upsell strategically within a funnel that already exists. Like that's going to drive way more acquisition revenue on that product for us than building its own funnel ever is. So it's just like what's that what's that opportunity cost between the two? Um, we know the 12 piece set's our hero product and the six piece set is the next one. So why not just set it up in those funnels that already exist? And like that's probably a better use of our time and and a lower lift than building net new funnels around this product.

Reza Khadjavi: Mhm. Really cool. Connor, you guys have been doing a bunch around, how many people in the world are going to buy wallets? I I feel like you guys joke about this every now and then that like the the the market size for wallets is insane and I feel like you guys will not stop until every one owns a Ridge wallet or what's the

Connor MacDonald: Yeah, well, just some quick math, there's like 300 million people in the US. Half of them are men. So we've got another like 140 million wallets to sell, something like that. We're looking for 100% penetration. Um, but no, we we've thought it obviously wallets are a tough category because one, guys typically only own one and then ours is guaranteed for life. So every time we acquire a new customer, it's actually I think slightly more difficult to acquire the next one. Um, so we've thought a lot about product expansion and category expansion. So the way our business is structured is we have really our three scalable categories. We have everyday carry, we have travel, we have rings, and uh, or we call it jewelry, and then we have hero products within that, wallet, luggage, wedding bands. Um, now what I'll say quickly is I think to a certain degree, there are economies of scale to producing creative. Like if I have a new product, I think the hardest ads to make from a time perspective are probably the first 10. If I need to make five more, it doesn't require 50% more energy. So you want to be at from a business perspective, creating products where you can benefit from economies of scale even at the creative level, for instance. Then you get into like because what you want to avoid is building a bunch of products and all of them need 10 unique ads. And then you're spending the hardest ads to make, you've you've given your test the you've given yourself the task of creating six or seven or eight sets of them. That is not a scalable strategy. So you want as fewer scalable ones. That's what we're focused on. That comes down to having a a decent sized TAM, having good economics, and understanding the funnels and acquisition engines you need to build to support those.

Reza Khadjavi: Super cool.

Connor Rolain: Yeah, we have a we have like we we operate, um, with this goal setting framework called the pyramid of clarity, which is very similar to like OKRs. And we have a we have a strategy this year that is only plant seeds that can turn into giants. And we I developed that strategy because I I noticed that like I felt like a lot of our team's time was getting taken up with with like channel rollouts or just overall tactics that might provide performance, but like probably never going to scale. Like Cody talked about this, I think in a previous episode as well. He's like, I don't want my team spending time trying to roll out a channel that's only going to get us to $1,000 a spend per day. Like we take that strategic lens on everything we do. So like, I'm not going to launch ads around kitchen tools. Do I think we could make kitchen tools work in the ad account? Absolutely. It's a $250 set of kitchen tools. We have the margin, we have the price point. But at the end of the day, like I just doubt that product line is ever going to get above a few thousand dollars per day in spend. So like, why would I not spend that time making the next cookware ad that's going to get us an incremental $200,000 or $300,000 of spend. So we're always that's not just with paid, Reza, but like literally everything we do has to be able to pass through that that strategic lens. If the answer's no, this will never this is not a seed that could turn into a giant, we just won't do it. Even if it could get us like an efficiency win at a small scale.

Reza Khadjavi: Can you talk a bit more about that? What what how do you how do you get to that point to realize that like it would be capped at this kind of scale or spend? What's the what's the steps that you go to try to understand where the limits could be?

Connor Rolain: Yeah. I mean, I think you you have to lean on your historical data a lot, you know, like, um, for us, Tik Tok has never been like a major part of our mix. Um, it's a it's a part of our mix, right? But it's like it's not anything higher than 10% ever. Um, and we never got we've never gotten it to anything higher than 10%. We've tried. Um, we haven't we haven't succeeded yet. So at least for now, because we have that historical data to lean on, we have decided that we are not going to spend a ton of time producing like a bunch of net new Tik Tok first content. We think we're better off producing like Facebook and Instagram ad first content that then might port over well to Tik Tok. That could change. Like I I still think there's value into like taking like sprinting at it and seeing if we can get that mix. But that's an example where we made that decision based on the historical data that we do have. Um, not everything you have historical data to like sometimes you just need to trust your gut, right? And be like, I I just don't think kitchen tools are going to work as an acquisition product.

Reza Khadjavi: Tell me more about that one, like the kitchen tools. Like how what's what's the thinking there to know that like it's it's unlikely to scale?

Connor Rolain: It's just a niche product, you know, it's like not everyone is going to want to buy a really expensive set of kitchen tools. That's point number one. Point number two is it actually fits in really nicely with an with an already established funnel of ours, which is our 12 piece set funnel. So like, why would I go build a new acquisition funnel around the kitchen tools when I can just insert this product as an upsell strategically within a funnel that already exists. Like that's going to drive way more acquisition revenue on that product for us than building its own funnel ever is. So it's just like what's that what's that opportunity cost between the two? Um, we know the 12 piece set's our hero product and the six piece set is the next one. So why not just set it up in those funnels that already exist? And like that's probably a better use of our time and and a lower lift than building net new funnels around this product.

Reza Khadjavi: Mhm. Really cool. Connor, you guys have been doing a bunch around, how many people in the world are going to buy wallets? I I feel like you guys joke about this every now and then that like the the the market size for wallets is insane and I feel like you guys will not stop until every one owns a Ridge wallet or what's the

Connor MacDonald: Yeah, well, just some quick math, there's like 300 million people in the US. Half of them are men. So we've got another like 140 million wallets to sell, something like that. We're looking for 100% penetration. Um, but no, we we've thought it obviously wallets are a tough category because one, guys typically only own one and then ours is guaranteed for life. So every time we acquire a new customer, it's actually I think slightly more difficult to acquire the next one. Um, so we've thought a lot about product expansion and category expansion. So the way our business is structured is we have really our three scalable categories. We have everyday carry, we have travel, we have rings, and uh, or we call it jewelry, and then we have hero products within that, wallet, luggage, wedding bands. Um, now what I'll say quickly is I think to a certain degree, there are economies of scale to producing creative. Like if I have a new product, I think the hardest ads to make from a time perspective are probably the first 10. If I need to make five more, it doesn't require 50% more energy. So you want to be at from a business perspective, creating products where you can benefit from economies of scale even at the creative level, for instance. Then you get into like because what you want to avoid is building a bunch of products and all of them need 10 unique ads. And then you're spending the hardest ads to make, you've you've given your test the you've given yourself the task of creating six or seven or eight sets of them. That is not a scalable strategy. So you want as fewer scalable ones. That's what we're focused on. That comes down to having a a decent sized TAM, having good economics, and understanding the funnels and acquisition engines you need to build to support those.

Reza Khadjavi: Super cool.

Connor Rolain: Yeah, we have a we have like we we operate, um, with this goal setting framework called the pyramid of clarity, which is very similar to like OKRs. And we have a we have a strategy this year that is only plant seeds that can turn into giants. And we I developed that strategy because I I noticed that like I felt like a lot of our team's time was getting taken up with with like channel rollouts or just overall tactics that might provide performance, but like probably never going to scale. Like Cody talked about this, I think in a previous episode as well. He's like, I don't want my team spending time trying to roll out a channel that's only going to get us to $1,000 a spend per day. Like we take that strategic lens on everything we do. So like, I'm not going to launch ads around kitchen tools. Do I think we could make kitchen tools work in the ad account? Absolutely. It's a $250 set of kitchen tools. We have the margin, we have the price point. But at the end of the day, like I just doubt that product line is ever going to get above a few thousand dollars per day in spend. So like, why would I not spend that time making the next cookware ad that's going to get us an incremental $200,000 or $300,000 of spend. So we're always that's not just with paid, Reza, but like literally everything we do has to be able to pass through that that strategic lens. If the answer's no, this will never this is not a seed that could turn into a giant, we just won't do it. Even if it could get us like an efficiency win at a small scale.

Reza Khadjavi: Can you talk a bit more about that? What what how do you how do you get to that point to realize that like it would be capped at this kind of scale or spend? What's the what's the steps that you go to try to understand where the limits could be?

Connor Rolain: Yeah. I mean, I think you you have to lean on your historical data a lot, you know, like, um, for us, Tik Tok has never been like a major part of our mix. Um, it's a it's a part of our mix, right? But it's like it's not anything higher than 10% ever. Um, and we never got we've never gotten it to anything higher than 10%. We've tried. Um, we haven't we haven't succeeded yet. So at least for now, because we have that historical data to lean on, we have decided that we are not going to spend a ton of time producing like a bunch of net new Tik Tok first content. We think we're better off producing like Facebook and Instagram ad first content that then might port over well to Tik Tok. That could change. Like I I still think there's value into like taking like sprinting at it and seeing if we can get that mix. But that's an example where we made that decision based on the historical data that we do have. Um, not everything you have historical data to like sometimes you just need to trust your gut, right? And be like, I I just don't think kitchen tools are going to work as an acquisition product.

Reza Khadjavi: Tell me more about that one, like the kitchen tools. Like how what's what's the thinking there to know that like it's it's unlikely to scale?

Connor Rolain: It's just a niche product, you know, it's like not everyone is going to want to buy a really expensive set of kitchen tools. That's point number one. Point number two is it actually fits in really nicely with an with an already established funnel of ours, which is our 12 piece set funnel. So like, why would I go build a new acquisition funnel around the kitchen tools when I can just insert this product as an upsell strategically within a funnel that already exists. Like that's going to drive way more acquisition revenue on that product for us than building its own funnel ever is. So it's just like what's that what's that opportunity cost between the two? Um, we know the 12 piece set's our hero product and the six piece set is the next one. So why not just set it up in those funnels that already exist? And like that's probably a better use of our time and and a lower lift than building net new funnels around this product.

Reza Khadjavi: Mhm. Really cool. Connor, you guys have been doing a bunch around, how many people in the world are going to buy wallets? I I feel like you guys joke about this every now and then that like the the the market size for wallets is insane and I feel like you guys will not stop until every one owns a Ridge wallet or what's the

Connor MacDonald: Yeah, well, just some quick math, there's like 300 million people in the US. Half of them are men. So we've got another like 140 million wallets to sell, something like that. We're looking for 100% penetration. Um, but no, we we've thought it obviously wallets are a tough category because one, guys typically only own one and then ours is guaranteed for life. So every time we acquire a new customer, it's actually I think slightly more difficult to acquire the next one. Um, so we've thought a lot about product expansion and category expansion. So the way our business is structured is we have really our three scalable categories. We have everyday carry, we have travel, we have rings, and uh, or we call it jewelry, and then we have hero products within that, wallet, luggage, wedding bands. Um, now what I'll say quickly is I think to a certain degree, there are economies of scale to producing creative. Like if I have a new product, I think the hardest ads to make from a time perspective are probably the first 10. If I need to make five more, it doesn't require 50% more energy. So you want to be at from a business perspective, creating products where you can benefit from economies of scale even at the creative level, for instance. Then you get into like because what you want to avoid is building a bunch of products and all of them need 10 unique ads. And then you're spending the hardest ads to make, you've you've given your test the you've given yourself the task of creating six or seven or eight sets of them. That is not a scalable strategy. So you want as fewer scalable ones. That's what we're focused on. That comes down to having a a decent sized TAM, having good economics, and understanding the funnels and acquisition engines you need to build to support those.

Reza Khadjavi: Super cool.

Connor Rolain: Yeah, we have a we have like we we operate, um, with this goal setting framework called the pyramid of clarity, which is very similar to like OKRs. And we have a we have a strategy this year that is only plant seeds that can turn into giants. And we I developed that strategy because I I noticed that like I felt like a lot of our team's time was getting taken up with with like channel rollouts or just overall tactics that might provide performance, but like probably never going to scale. Like Cody talked about this, I think in a previous episode as well. He's like, I don't want my team spending time trying to roll out a channel that's only going to get us to $1,000 a spend per day. Like we take that strategic lens on everything we do. So like, I'm not going to launch ads around kitchen tools. Do I think we could make kitchen tools work in the ad account? Absolutely. It's a $250 set of kitchen tools. We have the margin, we have the price point. But at the end of the day, like I just doubt that product line is ever going to get above a few thousand dollars per day in spend. So like, why would I not spend that time making the next cookware ad that's going to get us an incremental $200,000 or $300,000 of spend. So we're always that's not just with paid, Reza, but like literally everything we do has to be able to pass through that that strategic lens. If the answer's no, this will never this is not a seed that could turn into a giant, we just won't do it. Even if it could get us like an efficiency win at a small scale.

Reza Khadjavi: Can you talk a bit more about that? What what how do you how do you get to that point to realize that like it would be capped at this kind of scale or spend? What's the what's the steps that you go to try to understand where the limits could be?

Connor Rolain: Yeah. I mean, I think you you have to lean on your historical data a lot, you know, like, um, for us, Tik Tok has never been like a major part of our mix. Um, it's a it's a part of our mix, right? But it's like it's not anything higher than 10% ever. Um, and we never got we've never gotten it to anything higher than 10%. We've tried. Um, we haven't we haven't succeeded yet. So at least for now, because we have that historical data to lean on, we have decided that we are not going to spend a ton of time producing like a bunch of net new Tik Tok first content. We think we're better off producing like Facebook and Instagram ad first content that then might port over well to Tik Tok. That could change. Like I I still think there's value into like taking like sprinting at it and seeing if we can get that mix. But that's an example where we made that decision based on the historical data that we do have. Um, not everything you have historical data to like sometimes you just need to trust your gut, right? And be like, I I just don't think kitchen tools are going to work as an acquisition product.

Reza Khadjavi: Tell me more about that one, like the kitchen tools. Like how what's what's the thinking there to know that like it's it's unlikely to scale?

Connor Rolain: It's just a niche product, you know, it's like not everyone is going to want to buy a really expensive set of kitchen tools. That's point number one. Point number two is it actually fits in really nicely with an with an already established funnel of ours, which is our 12 piece set funnel. So like, why would I go build a new acquisition funnel around the kitchen tools when I can just insert this product as an upsell strategically within a funnel that already exists. Like that's going to drive way more acquisition revenue on that product for us than building its own funnel ever is. So it's just like what's that what's that opportunity cost between the two? Um, we know the 12 piece set's our hero product and the six piece set is the next one. So why not just set it up in those funnels that already exist? And like that's probably a better use of our time and and a lower lift than building net new funnels around this product.

Reza Khadjavi: Mhm. Really cool. Connor, you guys have been doing a bunch around, how many people in the world are going to buy wallets? I I feel like you guys joke about this every now and then that like the the the market size for wallets is insane and I feel like you guys will not stop until every one owns a Ridge wallet or what's the

Connor MacDonald: Yeah, well, just some quick math, there's like 300 million people in the US. Half of them are men. So we've got another like 140 million wallets to sell, something like that. We're looking for 100% penetration. Um, but no, we we've thought it obviously wallets are a tough category because one, guys typically only own one and then ours is guaranteed for life. So every time we acquire a new customer, it's actually I think slightly more difficult to acquire the next one. Um, so we've thought a lot about product expansion and category expansion. So the way our business is structured is we have really our three scalable categories. We have everyday carry, we have travel, we have rings, and uh, or we call it jewelry, and then we have hero products within that, wallet, luggage, wedding bands. Um, now what I'll say quickly is I think to a certain degree, there are economies of scale to producing creative. Like if I have a new product, I think the hardest ads to make from a time perspective are probably the first 10. If I need to make five more, it doesn't require 50% more energy. So you want to be at from a business perspective, creating products where you can benefit from economies of scale even at the creative level, for instance. Then you get into like because what you want to avoid is building a bunch of products and all of them need 10 unique ads. And then you're spending the hardest ads to make, you've you've given your test the you've given yourself the task of creating six or seven or eight sets of them. That is not a scalable strategy. So you want as fewer scalable ones. That's what we're focused on. That comes down to having a a decent sized TAM, having good economics, and understanding the funnels and acquisition engines you need to build to support those.

Reza Khadjavi: Super cool.

Connor Rolain: Yeah, we have a we have like we we operate, um, with this goal setting framework called the pyramid of clarity, which is very similar to like OKRs. And we have a we have a strategy this year that is only plant seeds that can turn into giants. And we I developed that strategy because I I noticed that like I felt like a lot of our team's time was getting taken up with with like channel rollouts or just overall tactics that might provide performance, but like probably never going to scale. Like Cody talked about this, I think in a previous episode as well. He's like, I don't want my team spending time trying to roll out a channel that's only going to get us to $1,000 a spend per day. Like we take that strategic lens on everything we do. So like, I'm not going to launch ads around kitchen tools. Do I think we could make kitchen tools work in the ad account? Absolutely. It's a $250 set of kitchen tools. We have the margin, we have the price point. But at the end of the day, like I just doubt that product line is ever going to get above a few thousand dollars per day in spend. So like, why would I not spend that time making the next cookware ad that's going to get us an incremental $200,000 or $300,000 of spend. So we're always that's not just with paid, Reza, but like literally everything we do has to be able to pass through that that strategic lens. If the answer's no, this will never this is not a seed that could turn into a giant, we just won't do it. Even if it could get us like an efficiency win at a small scale.

Reza Khadjavi: Can you talk a bit more about that? What what how do you how do you get to that point to realize that like it would be capped at this kind of scale or spend? What's the what's the steps that you go to try to understand where the limits could be?

Connor Rolain: Yeah. I mean, I think you you have to lean on your historical data a lot, you know, like, um, for us, Tik Tok has never been like a major part of our mix. Um, it's a it's a part of our mix, right? But it's like it's not anything higher than 10% ever. Um, and we never got we've never gotten it to anything higher than 10%. We've tried. Um, we haven't we haven't succeeded yet. So at least for now, because we have that historical data to lean on, we have decided that we are not going to spend a ton of time producing like a bunch of net new Tik Tok first content. We think we're better off producing like Facebook and Instagram ad first content that then might port over well to Tik Tok. That could change. Like I I still think there's value into like taking like sprinting at it and seeing if we can get that mix. But that's an example where we made that decision based on the historical data that we do have. Um, not everything you have historical data to like sometimes you just need to trust your gut, right? And be like, I I just don't think kitchen tools are going to work as an acquisition product.

Reza Khadjavi: Tell me more about that one, like the kitchen tools. Like how what's what's the thinking there to know that like it's it's unlikely to scale?

Connor Rolain: It's just a niche product, you know, it's like not everyone is going to want to buy a really expensive set of kitchen tools. That's point number one. Point number two is it actually fits in really nicely with an with an already established funnel of ours, which is our 12 piece set funnel. So like, why would I go build a new acquisition funnel around the kitchen tools when I can just insert this product as an upsell strategically within a funnel that already exists. Like that's going to drive way more acquisition revenue on that product for us than building its own funnel ever is. So it's just like what's that what's that opportunity cost between the two? Um, we know the 12 piece set's our hero product and the six piece set is the next one. So why not just set it up in those funnels that already exist? And like that's probably a better use of our time and and a lower lift than building net new funnels around this product.

Reza Khadjavi: Mhm. Really cool. Connor, you guys have been doing a bunch around, how many people in the world are going to buy wallets? I I feel like you guys joke about this every now and then that like the the the market size for wallets is insane and I feel like you guys will not stop until every one owns a Ridge wallet or what's the

Connor MacDonald: Yeah, well, just some quick math, there's like 300 million people in the US. Half of them are men. So we've got another like 140 million wallets to sell, something like that. We're looking for 100% penetration. Um, but no, we we've thought it obviously wallets are a tough category because one, guys typically only own one and then ours is guaranteed for life. So every time we acquire a new customer, it's actually I think slightly more difficult to acquire the next one. Um, so we've thought a lot about product expansion and category expansion. So the way our business is structured is we have really our three scalable categories. We have everyday carry, we have travel, we have rings, and uh, or we call it jewelry, and then we have hero products within that, wallet, luggage, wedding bands. Um, now what I'll say quickly is I think to a certain degree, there are economies of scale to producing creative. Like if I have a new product, I think the hardest ads to make from a time perspective are probably the first 10. If I need to make five more, it doesn't require 50% more energy. So you want to be at from a business perspective, creating products where you can benefit from economies of scale even at the creative level, for instance. Then you get into like because what you want to avoid is building a bunch of products and all of them need 10 unique ads. And then you're spending the hardest ads to make, you've you've given your test the you've given yourself the task of creating six or seven or eight sets of them. That is not a scalable strategy. So you want as fewer scalable ones. That's what we're focused on. That comes down to having a a decent sized TAM, having good economics, and understanding the funnels and acquisition engines you need to build to support those.

Reza Khadjavi: Super cool.

Connor Rolain: Yeah, we have a we have like we we operate, um, with this goal setting framework called the pyramid of clarity, which is very similar to like OKRs. And we have a we have a strategy this year that is only plant seeds that can turn into giants. And we I developed that strategy because I I noticed that like I felt like a lot of our team's time was getting taken up with with like channel rollouts or just overall tactics that might provide performance, but like probably never going to scale. Like Cody talked about this, I think in a previous episode as well. He's like, I don't want my team spending time trying to roll out a channel that's only going to get us to $1,000 a spend per day. Like we take that strategic lens on everything we do. So like, I'm not going to launch ads around kitchen tools. Do I think we could make kitchen tools work in the ad account? Absolutely. It's a $250 set of kitchen tools. We have the margin, we have the price point. But at the end of the day, like I just doubt that product line is ever going to get above a few thousand dollars per day in spend. So like, why would I not spend that time making the next cookware ad that's going to get us an incremental $200,000 or $300,000 of spend. So we're always that's not just with paid, Reza, but like literally everything we do has to be able to pass through that that strategic lens. If the answer's no, this will never this is not a seed that could turn into a giant, we just won't do it. Even if it could get us like an efficiency win at a small scale.

Reza Khadjavi: Can you talk a bit more about that? What what how do you how do you get to that point to realize that like it would be capped at this kind of scale or spend? What's the what's the steps that you go to try to understand where the limits could be?

Connor Rolain: Yeah. I mean, I think you you have to lean on your historical data a lot, you know, like, um, for us, Tik Tok has never been like a major part of our mix. Um, it's a it's a part of our mix, right? But it's like it's not anything higher than 10% ever. Um, and we never got we've never gotten it to anything higher than 10%. We've tried. Um, we haven't we haven't succeeded yet. So at least for now, because we have that historical data to lean on, we have decided that we are not going to spend a ton of time producing like a bunch of net new Tik Tok first content. We think we're better off producing like Facebook and Instagram ad first content that then might port over well to Tik Tok. That could change. Like I I still think there's value into like taking like sprinting at it and seeing if we can get that mix. But that's an example where we made that decision based on the historical data that we do have. Um, not everything you have historical data to like sometimes you just need to trust your gut, right? And be like, I I just don't think kitchen tools are going to work as an acquisition product.

Reza Khadjavi: Tell me more about that one, like the kitchen tools. Like how what's what's the thinking there to know that like it's it's unlikely to scale?

Connor Rolain: It's just a niche product, you know, it's like not everyone is going to want to buy a really expensive set of kitchen tools. That's point number one. Point number two is it actually fits in really nicely with an with an already established funnel of ours, which is our 12 piece set funnel. So like, why would I go build a new acquisition funnel around the kitchen tools when I can just insert this product as an upsell strategically within a funnel that already exists. Like that's going to drive way more acquisition revenue on that product for us than building its own funnel ever is. So it's just like what's that what's that opportunity cost between the two? Um, we know the 12 piece set's our hero product and the six piece set is the next one. So why not just set it up in those funnels that already exist? And like that's probably a better use of our time and and a lower lift than building net new funnels around this product.

Reza Khadjavi: Mhm. Really cool. Connor, you guys have been doing a bunch around, how many people in the world are going to buy wallets? I I feel like you guys joke about this every now and then that like the the the market size for wallets is insane and I feel like you guys will not stop until every one owns a Ridge wallet or what's the

Connor MacDonald: Yeah, well, just some quick math, there's like 300 million people in the US. Half of them are men. So we've got another like 140 million wallets to sell, something like that. We're looking for 100% penetration. Um, but no, we we've thought it obviously wallets are a tough category because one, guys typically only own one and then ours is guaranteed for life. So every time we acquire a new customer, it's actually I think slightly more difficult to acquire the next one. Um, so we've thought a lot about product expansion and category expansion. So the way our business is structured is we have really our three scalable categories. We have everyday carry, we have travel, we have rings, and uh, or we call it jewelry, and then we have hero products within that, wallet, luggage, wedding bands. Um, now what I'll say quickly is I think to a certain degree, there are economies of scale to producing creative. Like if I have a new product, I think the hardest ads to make from a time perspective are probably the first 10. If I need to make five more, it doesn't require 50% more energy. So you want to be at from a business perspective, creating products where you can benefit from economies of scale even at the creative level, for instance. Then you get into like because what you want to avoid is building a bunch of products and all of them need 10 unique ads. And then you're spending the hardest ads to make, you've you've given your test the you've given yourself the task of creating six or seven or eight sets of them. That is not a scalable strategy. So you want as fewer scalable ones. That's what we're focused on. That comes down to having a a decent sized TAM, having good economics, and understanding the funnels and acquisition engines you need to build to support those.

Reza Khadjavi: Super cool.

Connor Rolain: Yeah, we have a we have like we we operate, um, with this goal setting framework called the pyramid of clarity, which is very similar to like OKRs. And we have a we have a strategy this year that is only plant seeds that can turn into giants. And we I developed that strategy because I I noticed that like I felt like a lot of our team's time was getting taken up with with like channel rollouts or just overall tactics that might provide performance, but like probably never going to scale. Like Cody talked about this, I think in a previous episode as well. He's like, I don't want my team spending time trying to roll out a channel that's only going to get us to $1,000 a spend per day. Like we take that strategic lens on everything we do. So like, I'm not going to launch ads around kitchen tools. Do I think we could make kitchen tools work in the ad account? Absolutely. It's a $250 set of kitchen tools. We have the margin, we have the price point. But at the end of the day, like I just doubt that product line is ever going to get above a few thousand dollars per day in spend. So like, why would I not spend that time making the next cookware ad that's going to get us an incremental $200,000 or $300,000 of spend. So we're always that's not just with paid, Reza, but like literally everything we do has to be able to pass through that that strategic lens. If the answer's no, this will never this is not a seed that could turn into a giant, we just won't do it. Even if it could get us like an efficiency win at a small scale.

Reza Khadjavi: Can you talk a bit more about that? What what how do you how do you get to that point to realize that like it would be capped at this kind of scale or spend? What's the what's the steps that you go to try to understand where the limits could be?

Connor Rolain: Yeah. I mean, I think you you have to lean on your historical data a lot, you know, like, um, for us, Tik Tok has never been like a major part of our mix. Um, it's a it's a part of our mix, right? But it's like it's not anything higher than 10% ever. Um, and we never got we've never gotten it to anything higher than 10%. We've tried. Um, we haven't we haven't succeeded yet. So at least for now, because we have that historical data to lean on, we have decided that we are not going to spend a ton of time producing like a bunch of net new Tik Tok first content. We think we're better off producing like Facebook and Instagram ad first content that then might port over well to Tik Tok. That could change. Like I I still think there's value into like taking like sprinting at it and seeing if we can get that mix. But that's an example where we made that decision based on the historical data that we do have. Um, not everything you have historical data to like sometimes you just need to trust your gut, right? And be like, I I just don't think kitchen tools are going to work as an acquisition product.

Reza Khadjavi: Tell me more about that one, like the kitchen tools. Like how what's what's the thinking there to know that like it's it's unlikely to scale?

Connor Rolain: It's just a niche product, you know, it's like not everyone is going to want to buy a really expensive set of kitchen tools. That's point number one. Point number two is it actually fits in really nicely with an with an already established funnel of ours, which is our 12 piece set funnel. So like, why would I go build a new acquisition funnel around the kitchen tools when I can just insert this product as an upsell strategically within a funnel that already exists. Like that's going to drive way more acquisition revenue on that product for us than building its own funnel ever is. So it's just like what's that what's that opportunity cost between the two? Um, we know the 12 piece set's our hero product and the six piece set is the next one. So why not just set it up in those funnels that already exist? And like that's probably a better use of our time and and a lower lift than building net new funnels around this product.

Reza Khadjavi: Mhm. Really cool. Connor, you guys have been doing a bunch around, how many people in the world are going to buy wallets? I I feel like you guys joke about this every now and then that like the the the market size for wallets is insane and I feel like you guys will not stop until every one owns a Ridge wallet or what's the

Connor MacDonald: Yeah, well, just some quick math, there's like 300 million people in the US. Half of them are men. So we've got another like 140 million wallets to sell, something like that. We're looking for 100% penetration. Um, but no, we we've thought it obviously wallets are a tough category because one, guys typically only own one and then ours is guaranteed for life. So every time we acquire a new customer, it's actually I think slightly more difficult to acquire the next one. Um, so we've thought a lot about product expansion and category expansion. So the way our business is structured is we have really our three scalable categories. We have everyday carry, we have travel, we have rings, and uh, or we call it jewelry, and then we have hero products within that, wallet, luggage, wedding bands. Um, now what I'll say quickly is I think to a certain degree, there are economies of scale to producing creative. Like if I have a new product, I think the hardest ads to make from a time perspective are probably the first 10. If I need to make five more, it doesn't require 50% more energy. So you want to be at from a business perspective, creating products where you can benefit from economies of scale even at the creative level, for instance. Then you get into like because what you want to avoid is building a bunch of products and all of them need 10 unique ads. And then you're spending the hardest ads to make, you've you've given your test the you've given yourself the task of creating six or seven or eight sets of them. That is not a scalable strategy. So you want as fewer scalable ones. That's what we're focused on. That comes down to having a a decent sized TAM, having good economics, and understanding the funnels and acquisition engines you need to build to support those.

Reza Khadjavi: Super cool.

Connor Rolain: Yeah, we have a we have like we we operate, um, with this goal setting framework called the pyramid of clarity, which is very similar to like OKRs. And we have a we have a strategy this year that is only plant seeds that can turn into giants. And we I developed that strategy because I I noticed that like I felt like a lot of our team's time was getting taken up with with like channel rollouts or just overall tactics that might provide performance, but like probably never going to scale. Like Cody talked about this, I think in a previous episode as well. He's like, I don't want my team spending time trying to roll out a channel that's only going to get us to $1,000 a spend per day. Like we take that strategic lens on everything we do. So like, I'm not going to launch ads around kitchen tools. Do I think we could make kitchen tools work in the ad account? Absolutely. It's a $250 set of kitchen tools. We have the margin, we have the price point. But at the end of the day, like I just doubt that product line is ever going to get above a few thousand dollars per day in spend. So like, why would I not spend that time making the next cookware ad that's going to get us an incremental $200,000 or $300,000 of spend. So we're always that's not just with paid, Reza, but like literally everything we do has to be able to pass through that that strategic lens. If the answer's no, this will never this is not a seed that could turn into a giant, we just won't do it. Even if it could get us like an efficiency win at a small scale.

Reza Khadjavi: Can you talk a bit more about that? What what how do you how do you get to that point to realize that like it would be capped at this kind of scale or spend? What's the what's the steps that you go to try to understand where the limits could be?

Connor Rolain: Yeah. I mean, I think you you have to lean on your historical data a lot, you know, like, um, for us, Tik Tok has never been like a major part of our mix. Um, it's a it's a part of our mix, right? But it's like it's not anything higher than 10% ever. Um, and we never got we've never gotten it to anything higher than 10%. We've tried. Um, we haven't we haven't succeeded yet. So at least for now, because we have that historical data to lean on, we have decided that we are not going to spend a ton of time producing like a bunch of net new Tik Tok first content. We think we're better off producing like Facebook and Instagram ad first content that then might port over well to Tik Tok. That could change. Like I I still think there's value into like taking like sprinting at it and seeing if we can get that mix. But that's an example where we made that decision based on the historical data that we do have. Um, not everything you have historical data to like sometimes you just need to trust your gut, right? And be like, I I just don't think kitchen tools are going to work as an acquisition product.

Reza Khadjavi: Tell me more about that one, like the kitchen tools. Like how what's what's the thinking there to know that like it's it's unlikely to scale?

Connor Rolain: It's just a niche product, you know, it's like not everyone is going to want to buy a really expensive set of kitchen tools. That's point number one. Point number two is it actually fits in really nicely with an with an already established funnel of ours, which is our 12 piece set funnel. So like, why would I go build a new acquisition funnel around the kitchen tools when I can just insert this product as an upsell strategically within a funnel that already exists. Like that's going to drive way more acquisition revenue on that product for us than building its own funnel ever is. So it's just like what's that what's that opportunity cost between the two? Um, we know the 12 piece set's our hero product and the six piece set is the next one. So why not just set it up in those funnels that already exist? And like that's probably a better use of our time and and a lower lift than building net new funnels around this product.

Reza Khadjavi: Mhm. Really cool. Connor, you guys have been doing a bunch around, how many people in the world are going to buy wallets? I I feel like you guys joke about this every now and then that like the the the market size for wallets is insane and I feel like you guys will not stop until every one owns a Ridge wallet or what's the

Connor MacDonald: Yeah, well, just some quick math, there's like 300 million people in the US. Half of them are men. So we've got another like 140 million wallets to sell, something like that. We're looking for 100% penetration. Um, but no, we we've thought it obviously wallets are a tough category because one, guys typically only own one and then ours is guaranteed for life. So every time we acquire a new customer, it's actually I think slightly more difficult to acquire the next one. Um, so we've thought a lot about product expansion and category expansion. So the way our business is structured is we have really our three scalable categories. We have everyday carry, we have travel, we have rings, and uh, or we call it jewelry, and then we have hero products within that, wallet, luggage, wedding bands. Um, now what I'll say quickly is I think to a certain degree, there are economies of scale to producing creative. Like if I have a new product, I think the hardest ads to make from a time perspective are probably the first 10. If I need to make five more, it doesn't require 50% more energy. So you want to be at from a business perspective, creating products where you can benefit from economies of scale even at the creative level, for instance. Then you get into like because what you want to avoid is building a bunch of products and all of them need 10 unique ads. And then you're spending the hardest ads to make, you've you've given your test the you've given yourself the task of creating six or seven or eight sets of them. That is not a scalable strategy. So you want as fewer scalable ones. That's what we're focused on. That comes down to having a a decent sized TAM, having good economics, and understanding the funnels and acquisition engines you need to build to support those.

Reza Khadjavi: Super cool.

Connor Rolain: Yeah, we have a we have like we we operate, um, with this goal setting framework called the pyramid of clarity, which is very similar to like OKRs. And we have a we have a strategy this year that is only plant seeds that can turn into giants. And we I developed that strategy because I I noticed that like I felt like a lot of our team's time was getting taken up with with like channel rollouts or just overall tactics that might provide performance, but like probably never going to scale. Like Cody talked about this, I think in a previous episode as well. He's like, I don't want my team spending time trying to roll out a channel that's only going to get us to $1,000 a spend per day. Like we take that strategic lens on everything we do. So like, I'm not going to launch ads around kitchen tools. Do I think we could make kitchen tools work in the ad account? Absolutely. It's a $250 set of kitchen tools. We have the margin, we have the price point. But at the end of the day, like I just doubt that product line is ever going to get above a few thousand dollars per day in spend. So like, why would I not spend that time making the next cookware ad that's going to get us an incremental $200,000 or $300,000 of spend. So we're always that's not just with paid, Reza, but like literally everything we do has to be able to pass through that that strategic lens. If the answer's no, this will never this is not a seed that could turn into a giant, we just won't do it. Even if it could get us like an efficiency win at a small scale.

Reza Khadjavi: Can you talk a bit more about that? What what how do you how do you get to that point to realize that like it would be capped at this kind of scale or spend? What's the what's the steps that you go to try to understand where the limits could be?

Connor Rolain: Yeah. I mean, I think you you have to lean on your historical data a lot, you know, like, um, for us, Tik Tok has never been like a major part of our mix. Um, it's a it's a part of our mix, right? But it's like it's not anything higher than 10% ever. Um, and we never got we've never gotten it to anything higher than 10%. We've tried. Um, we haven't we haven't succeeded yet. So at least for now, because we have that historical data to lean on, we have decided that we are not going to spend a ton of time producing like a bunch of net new Tik Tok first content. We think we're better off producing like Facebook and Instagram ad first content that then might port over well to Tik Tok. That could change. Like I I still think there's value into like taking like sprinting at it and seeing if we can get that mix. But that's an example where we made that decision based on the historical data that we do have. Um, not everything you have historical data to like sometimes you just need to trust your gut, right? And be like, I I just don't think kitchen tools are going to work as an acquisition product.

Reza Khadjavi: Tell me more about that one, like the kitchen tools. Like how what's what's the thinking there to know that like it's it's unlikely to scale?

Connor Rolain: It's just a niche product, you know, it's like not everyone is going to want to buy a really expensive set of kitchen tools. That's point number one. Point number two is it actually fits in really nicely with an with an already established funnel of ours, which is our 12 piece set funnel. So like, why would I go build a new acquisition funnel around the kitchen tools when I can just insert this product as an upsell strategically within a funnel that already exists. Like that's going to drive way more acquisition revenue on that product for us than building its own funnel ever is. So it's just like what's that what's that opportunity cost between the two? Um, we know the 12 piece set's our hero product and the six piece set is the next one. So why not just set it up in those funnels that already exist? And like that's probably a better use of our time and and a lower lift than building net new funnels around this product.

Reza Khadjavi: Mhm. Really cool. Connor, you guys have been doing a bunch around, how many people in the world are going to buy wallets? I I feel like you guys joke about this every now and then that like the the the market size for wallets is insane and I feel like you guys will not stop until every one owns a Ridge wallet or what's the

Connor MacDonald: Yeah, well, just some quick math, there's like 300 million people in the US. Half of them are men. So we've got another like 140 million wallets to sell, something like that. We're looking for 100% penetration. Um, but no, we we've thought it obviously wallets are a tough category because one, guys typically only own one and then ours is guaranteed for life. So every time we acquire a new customer, it's actually I think slightly more difficult to acquire the next one. Um, so we've thought a lot about product expansion and category expansion. So the way our business is structured is we have really our three scalable categories. We have everyday carry, we have travel, we have rings, and uh, or we call it jewelry, and then we have hero products within that, wallet, luggage, wedding bands. Um, now what I'll say quickly is I think to a certain degree, there are economies of scale to producing creative. Like if I have a new product, I think the hardest ads to make from a time perspective are probably the first 10. If I need to make five more, it doesn't require 50% more energy. So you want to be at from a business perspective, creating products where you can benefit from economies of scale even at the creative level, for instance. Then you get into like because what you want to avoid is building a bunch of products and all of them need 10 unique ads. And then you're spending the hardest ads to make, you've you've given your test the you've given yourself the task of creating six or seven or eight sets of them. That is not a scalable strategy. So you want as fewer scalable ones. That's what we're focused on. That comes down to having a a decent sized TAM, having good economics, and understanding the funnels and acquisition engines you need to build to support those.

Reza Khadjavi: Super cool.

Connor Rolain: Yeah, we have a we have like we we operate, um, with this goal setting framework called the pyramid of clarity, which is very similar to like OKRs. And we have a we have a strategy this year that is only plant seeds that can turn into giants. And we I developed that strategy because I I noticed that like I felt like a lot of our team's time was getting taken up with with like channel rollouts or just overall tactics that might provide performance, but like probably never going to scale. Like Cody talked about this, I think in a previous episode as well. He's like, I don't want my team spending time trying to roll out a channel that's only going to get us to $1,000 a spend per day. Like we take that strategic lens on everything we do. So like, I'm not going to launch ads around kitchen tools. Do I think we could make kitchen tools work in the ad account? Absolutely. It's a $250 set of kitchen tools. We have the margin, we have the price point. But at the end of the day, like I just doubt that product line is ever going to get above a few thousand dollars per day in spend. So like, why would I not spend that time making the next cookware ad that's going to get us an incremental $200,000 or $300,000 of spend. So we're always that's not just with paid, Reza, but like literally everything we do has to be able to pass through that that strategic lens. If the answer's no, this will never this is not a seed that could turn into a giant, we just won't do it. Even if it could get us like an efficiency win at a small scale.

Reza Khadjavi: Can you talk a bit more about that? What what how do you how do you get to that point to realize that like it would be capped at this kind of scale or spend? What's the what's the steps that you go to try to understand where the limits could be?

Connor Rolain: Yeah. I mean, I think you you have to lean on your historical data a lot, you know, like, um, for us, Tik Tok has never been like a major part of our mix. Um, it's a it's a part of our mix, right? But it's like it's not anything higher than 10% ever. Um, and we never got we've never gotten it to anything higher than 10%. We've tried. Um, we haven't we haven't succeeded yet. So at least for now, because we have that historical data to lean on, we have decided that we are not going to spend a ton of time producing like a bunch of net new Tik Tok first content. We think we're better off producing like Facebook and Instagram ad first content that then might port over well to Tik Tok. That could change. Like I I still think there's value into like taking like sprinting at it and seeing if we can get that mix. But that's an example where we made that decision based on the historical data that we do have. Um, not everything you have historical data to like sometimes you just need to trust your gut, right? And be like, I I just don't think kitchen tools are going to work as an acquisition product.

Reza Khadjavi: Tell me more about that one, like the kitchen tools. Like how what's what's the thinking there to know that like it's it's unlikely to scale?

Connor Rolain: It's just a niche product, you know, it's like not everyone is going to want to buy a really expensive set of kitchen tools. That's point number one. Point number two is it actually fits in really nicely with an with an already established funnel of ours, which is our 12 piece set funnel. So like, why would I go build a new acquisition funnel around the kitchen tools when I can just insert this product as an upsell strategically within a funnel that already exists. Like that's going to drive way more acquisition revenue on that product for us than building its own funnel ever is. So it's just like what's that what's that opportunity cost between the two? Um, we know the 12 piece set's our hero product and the six piece set is the next one. So why not just set it up in those funnels that already exist? And like that's probably a better use of our time and and a lower lift than building net new funnels around this product.

Reza Khadjavi: Mhm. Really cool. Connor, you guys have been doing a bunch around, how many people in the world are going to buy wallets? I I feel like you guys joke about this every now and then that like the the the market size for wallets is insane and I feel like you guys will not stop until every one owns a Ridge wallet or what's the

Connor MacDonald: Yeah, well, just some quick math, there's like 300 million people in the US. Half of them are men. So we've got another like 140 million wallets to sell, something like that. We're looking for 100% penetration. Um, but no, we we've thought it obviously wallets are a tough category because one, guys typically only own one and then ours is guaranteed for life. So every time we acquire a new customer, it's actually I think slightly more difficult to acquire the next one. Um, so we've thought a lot about product expansion and category expansion. So the way our business is structured is we have really our three scalable categories. We have everyday carry, we have travel, we have rings, and uh, or we call it jewelry, and then we have hero products within that, wallet, luggage, wedding bands. Um, now what I'll say quickly is I think to a certain degree, there are economies of scale to producing creative. Like if I have a new product, I think the hardest ads to make from a time perspective are probably the first 10. If I need to make five more, it doesn't require 50% more energy. So you want to be at from a business perspective, creating products where you can benefit from economies of scale even at the creative level, for instance. Then you get into like because what you want to avoid is building a bunch of products and all of them need 10 unique ads. And then you're spending the hardest ads to make, you've you've given your test the you've given yourself the task of creating six or seven or eight sets of them. That is not a scalable strategy. So you want as fewer scalable ones. That's what we're focused on. That comes down to having a a decent sized TAM, having good economics, and understanding the funnels and acquisition engines you need to build to support those.

Reza Khadjavi: Super cool.

Connor Rolain: Yeah, we have a we have like we we operate, um, with this goal setting framework called the pyramid of clarity, which is very similar to like OKRs. And we have a we have a strategy this year that is only plant seeds that can turn into giants. And we I developed that strategy because I I noticed that like I felt like a lot of our team's time was getting taken up with with like channel rollouts or just overall tactics that might provide performance, but like probably never going to scale. Like Cody talked about this, I think in a previous episode as well. He's like, I don't want my team spending time trying to roll out a channel that's only going to get us to $1,000 a spend per day. Like we take that strategic lens on everything we do. So like, I'm not going to launch ads around kitchen tools. Do I think we could make kitchen tools work in the ad account? Absolutely. It's a $250 set of kitchen tools. We have the margin, we have the price point. But at the end of the day, like I just doubt that product line is ever going to get above a few thousand dollars per day in spend. So like, why would I not spend that time making the next cookware ad that's going to get us an incremental $200,000 or $300,000 of spend. So we're always that's not just with paid, Reza, but like literally everything we do has to be able to pass through that that strategic lens. If the answer's no, this will never this is not a seed that could turn into a giant, we just won't do it. Even if it could get us like an efficiency win at a small scale.

Reza Khadjavi: Can you talk a bit more about that? What what how do you how do you get to that point to realize that like it would be capped at this kind of scale or spend? What's the what's the steps that you go to try to understand where the limits could be?

Connor Rolain: Yeah. I mean, I think you you have to lean on your historical data a lot, you know, like, um, for us, Tik Tok has never been like a major part of our mix. Um, it's a it's a part of our mix, right? But it's like it's not anything higher than 10% ever. Um, and we never got we've never gotten it to anything higher than 10%. We've tried. Um, we haven't we haven't succeeded yet. So at least for now, because we have that historical data to lean on, we have decided that we are not going to spend a ton of time producing like a bunch of net new Tik Tok first content. We think we're better off producing like Facebook and Instagram ad first content that then might port over well to Tik Tok. That could change. Like I I still think there's value into like taking like sprinting at it and seeing if we can get that mix. But that's an example where we made that decision based on the historical data that we do have. Um, not everything you have historical data to like sometimes you just need to trust your gut, right? And be like, I I just don't think kitchen tools are going to work as an acquisition product.

Reza Khadjavi: Tell me more about that one, like the kitchen tools. Like how what's what's the thinking there to know that like it's it's unlikely to scale?

Connor Rolain: It's just a niche product, you know, it's like not everyone is going to want to buy a really expensive set of kitchen tools. That's point number one. Point number two is it actually fits in really nicely with an with an already established funnel of ours, which is our 12 piece set funnel. So like, why would I go build a new acquisition funnel around the kitchen tools when I can just insert this product as an upsell strategically within a funnel that already exists. Like that's going to drive way more acquisition revenue on that product for us than building its own funnel ever is. So it's just like what's that what's that opportunity cost between the two? Um, we know the 12 piece set's our hero product and the six piece set is the next one. So why not just set it up in those funnels that already exist? And like that's probably a better use of our time and and a lower lift than building net new funnels around this product.

Reza Khadjavi: Mhm. Really cool. Connor, you guys have been doing a bunch around, how many people in the world are going to buy wallets? I I feel like you guys joke about this every now and then that like the the the market size for wallets is insane and I feel like you guys will not stop until every one owns a Ridge wallet or what's the

Connor MacDonald: Yeah, well, just some quick math, there's like 300 million people in the US. Half of them are men. So we've got another like 140 million wallets to sell, something like that. We're looking for 100% penetration. Um, but no, we we've thought it obviously wallets are a tough category because one, guys typically only own one and then ours is guaranteed for life. So every time we acquire a new customer, it's actually I think slightly more difficult to acquire the next one. Um, so we've thought a lot about product expansion and category expansion. So the way our business is structured is we have really our three scalable categories. We have everyday carry, we have travel, we have rings, and uh, or we call it jewelry, and then we have hero products within that, wallet, luggage, wedding bands. Um, now what I'll say quickly is I think to a certain degree, there are economies of scale to producing creative. Like if I have a new product, I think the hardest ads to make from a time perspective are probably the first 10. If I need to make five more, it doesn't require 50% more energy. So you want to be at from a business perspective, creating products where you can benefit from economies of scale even at the creative level, for instance. Then you get into like because what you want to avoid is building a bunch of products and all of them need 10 unique ads. And then you're spending the hardest ads to make, you've you've given your test the you've given yourself the task of creating six or seven or eight sets of them. That is not a scalable strategy. So you want as fewer scalable ones. That's what we're focused on. That comes down to having a a decent sized TAM, having good economics, and understanding the funnels and acquisition engines you need to build to support those.

Reza Khadjavi: Super cool.

Connor Rolain: Yeah, we have a we have like we we operate, um, with this goal setting framework called the pyramid of clarity, which is very similar to like OKRs. And we have a we have a strategy this year that is only plant seeds that can turn into giants. And we I developed that strategy because I I noticed that like I felt like a lot of our team's time was getting taken up with with like channel rollouts or just overall tactics that might provide performance, but like probably never going to scale. Like Cody talked about this, I think in a previous episode as well. He's like, I don't want my team spending time trying to roll out a channel that's only going to get us to $1,000 a spend per day. Like we take that strategic lens on everything we do. So like, I'm not going to launch ads around kitchen tools. Do I think we could make kitchen tools work in the ad account? Absolutely. It's a $250 set of kitchen tools. We have the margin, we have the price point. But at the end of the day, like I just doubt that product line is ever going to get above a few thousand dollars per day in spend. So like, why would I not spend that time making the next cookware ad that's going to get us an incremental $200,000 or $300,000 of spend. So we're always that's not just with paid, Reza, but like literally everything we do has to be able to pass through that that strategic lens. If the answer's no, this will never this is not a seed that could turn into a giant, we just won't do it. Even if it could get us like an efficiency win at a small scale.

Reza Khadjavi: Can you talk a bit more about that? What what how do you how do you get to that point to realize that like it would be capped at this kind of scale or spend? What's the what's the steps that you go to try to understand where the limits could be?

Connor Rolain: Yeah. I mean, I think you you have to lean on your historical data a lot, you know, like, um, for us, Tik Tok has never been like a major part of our mix. Um, it's a it's a part of our mix, right? But it's like it's not anything higher than 10% ever. Um, and we never got we've never gotten it to anything higher than 10%. We've tried. Um, we haven't we haven't succeeded yet. So at least for now, because we have that historical data to lean on, we have decided that we are not going to spend a ton of time producing like a bunch of net new Tik Tok first content. We think we're better off producing like Facebook and Instagram ad first content that then might port over well to Tik Tok. That could change. Like I I still think there's value into like taking like sprinting at it and seeing if we can get that mix. But that's an example where we made that decision based on the historical data that we do have. Um, not everything you have historical data to like sometimes you just need to trust your gut, right? And be like, I I just don't think kitchen tools are going to work as an acquisition product.

Reza Khadjavi: Tell me more about that one, like the kitchen tools. Like how what's what's the thinking there to know that like it's it's unlikely to scale?

Connor Rolain: It's just a niche product, you know, it's like not everyone is going to want to buy a really expensive set of kitchen tools. That's point number one. Point number two is it actually fits in really nicely with an with an already established funnel of ours, which is our 12 piece set funnel. So like, why would I go build a new acquisition funnel around the kitchen tools when I can just insert this product as an upsell strategically within a funnel that already exists. Like that's going to drive way more acquisition revenue on that product for us than building its own funnel ever is. So it's just like what's that what's that opportunity cost between the two? Um, we know the 12 piece set's our hero product and the six piece set is the next one. So why not just set it up in those funnels that already exist? And like that's probably a better use of our time and and a lower lift than building net new funnels around this product.

Reza Khadjavi: Mhm. Really cool. Connor, you guys have been doing a bunch around, how many people in the world are going to buy wallets? I I feel like you guys joke about this every now and then that like the the the market size for wallets is insane and I feel like you guys will not stop until every one owns a Ridge wallet or what's the

Connor MacDonald: Yeah, well, just some quick math, there's like 300 million people in the US. Half of them are men. So we've got another like 140 million wallets to sell, something like that. We're looking for 100% penetration. Um, but no, we we've thought it obviously wallets are a tough category because one, guys typically only own one and then ours is guaranteed for life. So every time we acquire a new customer, it's actually I think slightly more difficult to acquire the next one. Um, so we've thought a lot about product expansion and category expansion. So the way our business is structured is we have really our three scalable categories. We have everyday carry, we have travel, we have rings, and uh, or we call it jewelry, and then we have hero products within that, wallet, luggage, wedding bands. Um, now what I'll say quickly is I think to a certain degree, there are economies of scale to producing creative. Like if I have a new product, I think the hardest ads to make from a time perspective are probably the first 10. If I need to make five more, it doesn't require 50% more energy. So you want to be at from a business perspective, creating products where you can benefit from economies of scale even at the creative level, for instance. Then you get into like because what you want to avoid is building a bunch of products and all of them need 10 unique ads. And then you're spending the hardest ads to make, you've you've given your test the you've given yourself the task of creating six or seven or eight sets of them. That is not a scalable strategy. So you want as fewer scalable ones. That's what we're focused on. That comes down to having a a decent sized TAM, having good economics, and understanding the funnels and acquisition engines you need to build to support those.

Reza Khadjavi: Super cool.

Connor Rolain: Yeah, we have a we have like we we operate, um, with this goal setting framework called the pyramid of clarity, which is very similar to like OKRs. And we have a we have a strategy this year that is only plant seeds that can turn into giants. And we I developed that strategy because I I noticed that like I felt like a lot of our team's time was getting taken up with with like channel rollouts or just overall tactics that might provide performance, but like probably never going to scale. Like Cody talked about this, I think in a previous episode as well. He's like, I don't want my team spending time trying to roll out a channel that's only going to get us to $1,000 a spend per day. Like we take that strategic lens on everything we do. So like, I'm not going to launch ads around kitchen tools. Do I think we could make kitchen tools work in the ad account? Absolutely. It's a $250 set of kitchen tools. We have the margin, we have the price point. But at the end of the day, like I just doubt that product line is ever going to get above a few thousand dollars per day in spend. So like, why would I not spend that time making the next cookware ad that's going to get us an incremental $200,000 or $300,000 of spend. So we're always that's not just with paid, Reza, but like literally everything we do has to be able to pass through that that strategic lens. If the answer's no, this will never this is not a seed that could turn into a giant, we just won't do it. Even if it could get us like an efficiency win at a small scale.

Reza Khadjavi: Can you talk a bit more about that? What what how do you how do you get to that point to realize that like it would be capped at this kind of scale or spend? What's the what's the steps that you go to try to understand where the limits could be?

Connor Rolain: Yeah. I mean, I think you you have to lean on your historical data a lot, you know, like, um, for us, Tik Tok has never been like a major part of our mix. Um, it's a it's a part of our mix, right? But it's like it's not anything higher than 10% ever. Um, and we never got we've never gotten it to anything higher than 10%. We've tried. Um, we haven't we haven't succeeded yet. So at least for now, because we have that historical data to lean on, we have decided that we are not going to spend a ton of time producing like a bunch of net new Tik Tok first content. We think we're better off producing like Facebook and Instagram ad first content that then might port over well to Tik Tok. That could change. Like I I still think there's value into like taking like sprinting at it and seeing if we can get that mix. But that's an example where we made that decision based on the historical data that we do have. Um, not everything you have historical data to like sometimes you just need to trust your gut, right? And be like, I I just don't think kitchen tools are going to work as an acquisition product.

Reza Khadjavi: Tell me more about that one, like the kitchen tools. Like how what's what's the thinking there to know that like it's it's unlikely to scale?

Connor Rolain: It's just a niche product, you know, it's like not everyone is going to want to buy a really expensive set of kitchen tools. That's point number one. Point number two is it actually fits in really nicely with an with an already established funnel of ours, which is our 12 piece set funnel. So like, why would I go build a new acquisition funnel around the kitchen tools when I can just insert this product as an upsell strategically within a funnel that already exists. Like that's going to drive way more acquisition revenue on that product for us than building its own funnel ever is. So it's just like what's that what's that opportunity cost between the two? Um, we know the 12 piece set's our hero product and the six piece set is the next one. So why not just set it up in those funnels that already exist? And like that's probably a better use of our time and and a lower lift than building net new funnels around this product.

Reza Khadjavi: Mhm. Really cool. Connor, you guys have been doing a bunch around, how many people in the world are going to buy wallets? I I feel like you guys joke about this every now and then that like the the the market size for wallets is insane and I feel like you guys will not stop until every one owns a Ridge wallet or what's the

Connor MacDonald: Yeah, well, just some quick math, there's like 300 million people in the US. Half of them are men. So we've got another like 140 million wallets to sell, something like that. We're looking for 100% penetration. Um, but no, we we've thought it obviously wallets are a tough category because one, guys typically only own one and then ours is guaranteed for life. So every time we acquire a new customer, it's actually I think slightly more difficult to acquire the next one. Um, so we've thought a lot about product expansion and category expansion. So the way our business is structured is we have really our three scalable categories. We have everyday carry, we have travel, we have rings, and uh, or we call it jewelry, and then we have hero products within that, wallet, luggage, wedding bands. Um, now what I'll say quickly is I think to a certain degree, there are economies of scale to producing creative. Like if I have a new product, I think the hardest ads to make from a time perspective are probably the first 10. If I need to make five more, it doesn't require 50% more energy. So you want to be at from a business perspective, creating products where you can benefit from economies of scale even at the creative level, for instance. Then you get into like because what you want to avoid is building a bunch of products and all of them need 10 unique ads. And then you're spending the hardest ads to make, you've you've given your test the you've given yourself the task of creating six or seven or eight sets of them. That is not a scalable strategy. So you want as fewer scalable ones. That's what we're focused on. That comes down to having a a decent sized TAM, having good economics, and understanding the funnels and acquisition engines you need to build to support those.

Reza Khadjavi: Super cool.

Connor Rolain: Yeah, we have a we have like we we operate, um, with this goal setting framework called the pyramid of clarity, which is very similar to like OKRs. And we have a we have a strategy this year that is only plant seeds that can turn into giants. And we I developed that strategy because I I noticed that like I felt like a lot of our team's time was getting taken up with with like channel rollouts or just overall tactics that might provide performance, but like probably never going to scale. Like Cody talked about this, I think in a previous episode as well. He's like, I don't want my team spending time trying to roll out a channel that's only going to get us to $1,000 a spend per day. Like we take that strategic lens on everything we do. So like, I'm not going to launch ads around kitchen tools. Do I think we could make kitchen tools work in the ad account? Absolutely. It's a $250 set of kitchen tools. We have the margin, we have the price point. But at the end of the day, like I just doubt that product line is ever going to get above a few thousand dollars per day in spend. So like, why would I not spend that time making the next cookware ad that's going to get us an incremental $200,000 or $300,000 of spend. So we're always that's not just with paid, Reza, but like literally everything we do has to be able to pass through that that strategic lens. If the answer's no, this will never this is not a seed that could turn into a giant, we just won't do it. Even if it could get us like an efficiency win at a small scale.

Reza Khadjavi: Can you talk a bit more about that? What what how do you how do you get to that point to realize that like it would be capped at this kind of scale or spend? What's the what's the steps that you go to try to understand where the limits could be?

Connor Rolain: Yeah. I mean, I think you you have to lean on your historical data a lot, you know, like, um, for us, Tik Tok has never been like a major part of our mix. Um, it's a it's a part of our mix, right? But it's like it's not anything higher than 10% ever. Um, and we never got we've never gotten it to anything higher than 10%. We've tried. Um, we haven't we haven't succeeded yet. So at least for now, because we have that historical data to lean on, we have decided that we are not going to spend a ton of time producing like a bunch of net new Tik Tok first content. We think we're better off producing like Facebook and Instagram ad first content that then might port over well to Tik Tok. That could change. Like I I still think there's value into like taking like sprinting at it and seeing if we can get that mix. But that's an example where we made that decision based on the historical data that we do have. Um, not everything you have historical data to like sometimes you just need to trust your gut, right? And be like, I I just don't think kitchen tools are going to work as an acquisition product.

Reza Khadjavi: Tell me more about that one, like the kitchen tools. Like how what's what's the thinking there to know that like it's it's unlikely to scale?

Connor Rolain: It's just a niche product, you know, it's like not everyone is going to want to buy a really expensive set of kitchen tools. That's point number one. Point number two is it actually fits in really nicely with an with an already established funnel of ours, which is our 12 piece set funnel. So like, why would I go build a new acquisition funnel around the kitchen tools when I can just insert this product as an upsell strategically within a funnel that already exists. Like that's going to drive way more acquisition revenue on that product for us than building its own funnel ever is. So it's just like what's that what's that opportunity cost between the two? Um, we know the 12 piece set's our hero product and the six piece set is the next one. So why not just set it up in those funnels that already exist? And like that's probably a better use of our time and and a lower lift than building net new funnels around this product.

Reza Khadjavi: Mhm. Really cool. Connor, you guys have been doing a bunch around, how many people in the world are going to buy wallets? I I feel like you guys joke about this every now and then that like the the the market size for wallets is insane and I feel like you guys will not stop until every one owns a Ridge wallet or what's the

Connor MacDonald: Yeah, well, just some quick math, there's like 300 million people in the US. Half of them are men. So we've got another like 140 million wallets to sell, something like that. We're looking for 100% penetration. Um, but no, we we've thought it obviously wallets are a tough category because one, guys typically only own one and then ours is guaranteed for life. So every time we acquire a new customer, it's actually I think slightly more difficult to acquire the next one. Um, so we've thought a lot about product expansion and category expansion. So the way our business is structured is we have really our three scalable categories. We have everyday carry, we have travel, we have rings, and uh, or we call it jewelry, and then we have hero products within that, wallet, luggage, wedding bands. Um, now what I'll say quickly is I think to a certain degree, there are economies of scale to producing creative. Like if I have a new product, I think the hardest ads to make from a time perspective are probably the first 10. If I need to make five more, it doesn't require 50% more energy. So you want to be at from a business perspective, creating products where you can benefit from economies of scale even at the creative level, for instance. Then you get into like because what you want to avoid is building a bunch of products and all of them need 10 unique ads. And then you're spending the hardest ads to make, you've you've given your test the you've given yourself the task of creating six or seven or eight sets of them. That is not a scalable strategy. So you want as fewer scalable ones. That's what we're focused on. That comes down to having a a decent sized TAM, having good economics, and understanding the funnels and acquisition engines you need to build to support those.

Reza Khadjavi: Super cool.

Connor Rolain: Yeah, we have a we have like we we operate, um, with this goal setting framework called the pyramid of clarity, which is very similar to like OKRs. And we have a we have a strategy this year that is only plant seeds that can turn into giants. And we I developed that strategy because I I noticed that like I felt like a lot of our team's time was getting taken up with with like channel rollouts or just overall tactics that might provide performance, but like probably never going to scale. Like Cody talked about this, I think in a previous episode as well. He's like, I don't want my team spending time trying to roll out a channel that's only going to get us to $1,000 a spend per day. Like we take that strategic lens on everything we do. So like, I'm not going to launch ads around kitchen tools. Do I think we could make kitchen tools work in the ad account? Absolutely. It's a $250 set of kitchen tools. We have the margin, we have the price point. But at the end of the day, like I just doubt that product line is ever going to get above a few thousand dollars per day in spend. So like, why would I not spend that time making the next cookware ad that's going to get us an incremental $200,000 or $300,000 of spend. So we're always that's not just with paid, Reza, but like literally everything we do has to be able to pass through that that strategic lens. If the answer's no, this will never this is not a seed that could turn into a giant, we just won't do it. Even if it could get us like an efficiency win at a small scale.

Reza Khadjavi: Can you talk a bit more about that? What what how do you how do you get to that point to realize that like it would be capped at this kind of scale or spend? What's the what's the steps that you go to try to understand where the limits could be?

Connor Rolain: Yeah. I mean, I think you you have to lean on your historical data a lot, you know, like, um, for us, Tik Tok has never been like a major part of our mix. Um, it's a it's a part of our mix, right? But it's like it's not anything higher than 10% ever. Um, and we never got we've never gotten it to anything higher than 10%. We've tried. Um, we haven't we haven't succeeded yet. So at least for now, because we have that historical data to lean on, we have decided that we are not going to spend a ton of time producing like a bunch of net new Tik Tok first content. We think we're better off producing like Facebook and Instagram ad first content that then might port over well to Tik Tok. That could change. Like I I still think there's value into like taking like sprinting at it and seeing if we can get that mix. But that's an example where we made that decision based on the historical data that we do have. Um, not everything you have historical data to like sometimes you just need to trust your gut, right? And be like, I I just don't think kitchen tools are going to work as an acquisition product.

Reza Khadjavi: Tell me more about that one, like the kitchen tools. Like how what's what's the thinking there to know that like it's it's unlikely to scale?

Connor Rolain: It's just a niche product, you know, it's like not everyone is going to want to buy a really expensive set of kitchen tools. That's point number one. Point number two is it actually fits in really nicely with an with an already established funnel of ours, which is our 12 piece set funnel. So like, why would I go build a new acquisition funnel around the kitchen tools when I can just insert this product as an upsell strategically within a funnel that already exists. Like that's going to drive way more acquisition revenue on that product for us than building its own funnel ever is. So it's just like what's that what's that opportunity cost between the two? Um, we know the 12 piece set's our hero product and the six piece set is the next one. So why not just set it up in those funnels that already exist? And like that's probably a better use of our time and and a lower lift than building net new funnels around this product.

Reza Khadjavi: Mhm. Really cool. Connor, you guys have been doing a bunch around, how many people in the world are going to buy wallets? I I feel like you guys joke about this every now and then that like the the the market size for wallets is insane and I feel like you guys will not stop until every one owns a Ridge wallet or what's the

Connor MacDonald: Yeah, well, just some quick math, there's like 300 million people in the US. Half of them are men. So we've got another like 140 million wallets to sell, something like that. We're looking for 100% penetration. Um, but no, we we've thought it obviously wallets are a tough category because one, guys typically only own one and then ours is guaranteed for life. So every time we acquire a new customer, it's actually I think slightly more difficult to acquire the next one. Um, so we've thought a lot about product expansion and category expansion. So the way our business is structured is we have really our three scalable categories. We have everyday carry, we have travel, we have rings, and uh, or we call it jewelry, and then we have hero products within that, wallet, luggage, wedding bands. Um, now what I'll say quickly is I think to a certain degree, there are economies of scale to producing creative. Like if I have a new product, I think the hardest ads to make from a time perspective are probably the first 10. If I need to make five more, it doesn't require 50% more energy. So you want to be at from a business perspective, creating products where you can benefit from economies of scale even at the creative level, for instance. Then you get into like because what you want to avoid is building a bunch of products and all of them need 10 unique ads. And then you're spending the hardest ads to make, you've you've given your test the you've given yourself the task of creating six or seven or eight sets of them. That is not a scalable strategy. So you want as fewer scalable ones. That's what we're focused on. That comes down to having a a decent sized TAM, having good economics, and understanding the funnels and acquisition engines you need to build to support those.

Reza Khadjavi: Super cool.

Connor Rolain: Yeah, we have a we have like we we operate, um, with this goal setting framework called the pyramid of clarity, which is very similar to like OKRs. And we have a we have a strategy this year that is only plant seeds that can turn into giants. And we I developed that strategy because I I noticed that like I felt like a lot of our team's time was getting taken up with with like channel rollouts or just overall tactics that might provide performance, but like probably never going to scale. Like Cody talked about this, I think in a previous episode as well. He's like, I don't want my team spending time trying to roll out a channel that's only going to get us to $1,000 a spend per day. Like we take that strategic lens on everything we do. So like, I'm not going to launch ads around kitchen tools. Do I think we could make kitchen tools work in the ad account? Absolutely. It's a $250 set of kitchen tools. We have the margin, we have the price point. But at the end of the day, like I just doubt that product line is ever going to get above a few thousand dollars per day in spend. So like, why would I not spend that time making the next cookware ad that's going to get us an incremental $200,000 or $300,000 of spend. So we're always that's not just with paid, Reza, but like literally everything we do has to be able to pass through that that strategic lens. If the answer's no, this will never this is not a seed that could turn into a giant, we just won't do it. Even if it could get us like an efficiency win at a small scale.

Reza Khadjavi: Can you talk a bit more about that? What what how do you how do you get to that point to realize that like it would be capped at this kind of scale or spend? What's the what's the steps that you go to try to understand where the limits could be?

Connor Rolain: Yeah. I mean, I think you you have to lean on your historical data a lot, you know, like, um, for us, Tik Tok has never been like a major part of our mix. Um, it's a it's a part of our mix, right? But it's like it's not anything higher than 10% ever. Um, and we never got we've never gotten it to anything higher than 10%. We've tried. Um, we haven't we haven't succeeded yet. So at least for now, because we have that historical data to lean on, we have decided that we are not going to spend a ton of time producing like a bunch of net new Tik Tok first content. We think we're better off producing like Facebook and Instagram ad first content that then might port over well to Tik Tok. That could change. Like I I still think there's value into like taking like sprinting at it and seeing if we can get that mix. But that's an example where we made that decision based on the historical data that we do have. Um, not everything you have historical data to like sometimes you just need to trust your gut, right? And be like, I I just don't think kitchen tools are going to work as an acquisition product.

Reza Khadjavi: Tell me more about that one, like the kitchen tools. Like how what's what's the thinking there to know that like it's it's unlikely to scale?

Connor Rolain: It's just a niche product, you know, it's like not everyone is going to want to buy a really expensive set of kitchen tools. That's point number one. Point number two is it actually fits in really nicely with an with an already established funnel of ours, which is our 12 piece set funnel. So like, why would I go build a new acquisition funnel around the kitchen tools when I can just insert this product as an upsell strategically within a funnel that already exists. Like that's going to drive way more acquisition revenue on that product for us than building its own funnel ever is. So it's just like what's that what's that opportunity cost between the two? Um, we know the 12 piece set's our hero product and the six piece set is the next one. So why not just set it up in those funnels that already exist? And like that's probably a better use of our time and and a lower lift than building net new funnels around this product.

Reza Khadjavi: Mhm. Really cool. Connor, you guys have been doing a bunch around, how many people in the world are going to buy wallets? I I feel like you guys joke about this every now and then that like the the the market size for wallets is insane and I feel like you guys will not stop until every one owns a Ridge wallet or what's the

Connor MacDonald: Yeah, well, just some quick math, there's like 300 million people in the US. Half of them are men. So we've got another like 140 million wallets to sell, something like that. We're looking for 100% penetration. Um, but no, we we've thought it obviously wallets are a tough category because one, guys typically only own one and then ours is guaranteed for life. So every time we acquire a new customer, it's actually I think slightly more difficult to acquire the next one. Um, so we've thought a lot about product expansion and category expansion. So the way our business is structured is we have really our three scalable categories. We have everyday carry, we have travel, we have rings, and uh, or we call it jewelry, and then we have hero products within that, wallet, luggage, wedding bands. Um, now what I'll say quickly is I think to a certain degree, there are economies of scale to producing creative. Like if I have a new product, I think the hardest ads to make from a time perspective are probably the first 10. If I need to make five more, it doesn't require 50% more energy. So you want to be at from a business perspective, creating products where you can benefit from economies of scale even at the creative level, for instance. Then you get into like because what you want to avoid is building a bunch of products and all of them need 10 unique ads. And then you're spending the hardest ads to make, you've you've given your test the you've given yourself the task of creating six or seven or eight sets of them. That is not a scalable strategy. So you want as fewer scalable ones. That's what we're focused on. That comes down to having a a decent sized TAM, having good economics, and understanding the funnels and acquisition engines you need to build to support those.

Reza Khadjavi: Super cool.

Connor Rolain: Yeah, we have a we have like we we operate, um, with this goal setting framework called the pyramid of clarity, which is very similar to like OKRs. And we have a we have a strategy this year that is only plant seeds that can turn into giants. And we I developed that strategy because I I noticed that like I felt like a lot of our team's time was getting taken up with with like channel rollouts or just overall tactics that might provide performance, but like probably never going to scale. Like Cody talked about this, I think in a previous episode as well. He's like, I don't want my team spending time trying to roll out a channel that's only going to get us to $1,000 a spend per day. Like we take that strategic lens on everything we do. So like, I'm not going to launch ads around kitchen tools. Do I think we could make kitchen tools work in the ad account? Absolutely. It's a $250 set of kitchen tools. We have the margin, we have the price point. But at the end of the day, like I just doubt that product line is ever going to get above a few thousand dollars per day in spend. So like, why would I not spend that time making the next cookware ad that's going to get us an incremental $200,000 or $300,000 of spend. So we're always that's not just with paid, Reza, but like literally everything we do has to be able to pass through that that strategic lens. If the answer's no, this will never this is not a seed that could turn into a giant, we just won't do it. Even if it could get us like an efficiency win at a small scale.

Reza Khadjavi: Can you talk a bit more about that? What what how do you how do you get to that point to realize that like it would be capped at this kind of scale or spend? What's the what's the steps that you go to try to understand where the limits could be?

Connor Rolain: Yeah. I mean, I think you you have to lean on your historical data a lot, you know, like, um, for us, Tik Tok has never been like a major part of our mix. Um, it's a it's a part of our mix, right? But it's like it's not anything higher than 10% ever. Um, and we never got we've never gotten it to anything higher than 10%. We've tried. Um, we haven't we haven't succeeded yet. So at least for now, because we have that historical data to lean on, we have decided that we are not going to spend a ton of time producing like a bunch of net new Tik Tok first content. We think we're better off producing like Facebook and Instagram ad first content that then might port over well to Tik Tok. That could change. Like I I still think there's value into like taking like sprinting at it and seeing if we can get that mix. But that's an example where we made that decision based on the historical data that we do have. Um, not everything you have historical data to like sometimes you just need to trust your gut, right? And be like, I I just don't think kitchen tools are going to work as an acquisition product.

Reza Khadjavi: Tell me more about that one, like the kitchen tools. Like how what's what's the thinking there to know that like it's it's unlikely to scale?

Connor Rolain: It's just a niche product, you know, it's like not everyone is going to want to buy a really expensive set of kitchen tools. That's point number one. Point number two is it actually fits in really nicely with an with an already established funnel of ours, which is our 12 piece set funnel. So like, why would I go build a new acquisition funnel around the kitchen tools when I can just insert this product as an upsell strategically within a funnel that already exists. Like that's going to drive way more acquisition revenue on that product for us than building its own funnel ever is. So it's just like what's that what's that opportunity cost between the two? Um, we know the 12 piece set's our hero product and the six piece set is the next one. So why not just set it up in those funnels that already exist? And like that's probably a better use of our time and and a lower lift than building net new funnels around this product.

Reza Khadjavi: Mhm. Really cool. Connor, you guys have been doing a bunch around, how many people in the world are going to buy wallets? I I feel like you guys joke about this every now and then that like the the the market size for wallets is insane and I feel like you guys will not stop until every one owns a Ridge wallet or what's the

Connor MacDonald: Yeah, well, just some quick math, there's like 300 million people in the US. Half of them are men. So we've got another like 140 million wallets to sell, something like that. We're looking for 100% penetration. Um, but no, we we've thought it obviously wallets are a tough category because one, guys typically only own one and then ours is guaranteed for life. So every time we acquire a new customer, it's actually I think slightly more difficult to acquire the next one. Um, so we've thought a lot about product expansion and category expansion. So the way our business is structured is we have really our three scalable categories. We have everyday carry, we have travel, we have rings, and uh, or we call it jewelry, and then we have hero products within that, wallet, luggage, wedding bands. Um, now what I'll say quickly is I think to a certain degree, there are economies of scale to producing creative. Like if I have a new product, I think the hardest ads to make from a time perspective are probably the first 10. If I need to make five more, it doesn't require 50% more energy. So you want to be at from a business perspective, creating products where you can benefit from economies of scale even at the creative level, for instance. Then you get into like because what you want to avoid is building a bunch of products and all of them need 10 unique ads. And then you're spending the hardest ads to make, you've you've given your test the you've given yourself the task of creating six or seven or eight sets of them. That is not a scalable strategy. So you want as fewer scalable ones. That's what we're focused on. That comes down to having a a decent sized TAM, having good economics, and understanding the funnels and acquisition engines you need to build to support those.

Reza Khadjavi: Super cool.

Connor Rolain: Yeah, we have a we have like we we operate, um, with this goal setting framework called the pyramid of clarity, which is very similar to like OKRs. And we have a we have a strategy this year that is only plant seeds that can turn into giants. And we I developed that strategy because I I noticed that like I felt like a lot of our team's time was getting taken up with with like channel rollouts or just overall tactics that might provide performance, but like probably never going to scale. Like Cody talked about this, I think in a previous episode as well. He's like, I don't want my team spending time trying to roll out a channel that's only going to get us to $1,000 a spend per day. Like we take that strategic lens on everything we do. So like, I'm not going to launch ads around kitchen tools. Do I think we could make kitchen tools work in the ad account? Absolutely. It's a $250 set of kitchen tools. We have the margin, we have the price point. But at the end of the day, like I just doubt that product line is ever going to get above a few thousand dollars per day in spend. So like, why would I not spend that time making the next cookware ad that's going to get us an incremental $200,000 or $300,000 of spend. So we're always that's not just with paid, Reza, but like literally everything we do has to be able to pass through that that strategic lens. If the answer's no, this will never this is not a seed that could turn into a giant, we just won't do it. Even if it could get us like an efficiency win at a small scale.

Reza Khadjavi: Can you talk a bit more about that? What what how do you how do you get to that point to realize that like it would be capped at this kind of scale or spend? What's the what's the steps that you go to try to understand where the limits could be?

Connor Rolain: Yeah. I mean, I think you you have to lean on your historical data a lot, you know, like, um, for us, Tik Tok has never been like a major part of our mix. Um, it's a it's a part of our mix, right? But it's like it's not anything higher than 10% ever. Um, and we never got we've never gotten it to anything higher than 10%. We've tried. Um, we haven't we haven't succeeded yet. So at least for now, because we have that historical data to lean on, we have decided that we are not going to spend a ton of time producing like a bunch of net new Tik Tok first content. We think we're better off producing like Facebook and Instagram ad first content that then might port over well to Tik Tok. That could change. Like I I still think there's value into like taking like sprinting at it and seeing if we can get that mix. But that's an example where we made that decision based on the historical data that we do have. Um, not everything you have historical data to like sometimes you just need to trust your gut, right? And be like, I I just don't think kitchen tools are going to work as an acquisition product.

Reza Khadjavi: Tell me more about that one, like the kitchen tools. Like how what's what's the thinking there to know that like it's it's unlikely to scale?

Connor Rolain: It's just a niche product, you know, it's like not everyone is going to want to buy a really expensive set of kitchen tools. That's point number one. Point number two is it actually fits in really nicely with an with an already established funnel of ours, which is our 12 piece set funnel. So like, why would I go build a new acquisition funnel around the kitchen tools when I can just insert this product as an upsell strategically within a funnel that already exists. Like that's going to drive way more acquisition revenue on that product for us than building its own funnel ever is. So it's just like what's that what's that opportunity cost between the two? Um, we know the 12 piece set's our hero product and the six piece set is the next one. So why not just set it up in those funnels that already exist? And like that's probably a better use of our time and and a lower lift than building net new funnels around this product.

Reza Khadjavi: Mhm. Really cool. Connor, you guys have been doing a bunch around, how many people in the world are going to buy wallets? I I feel like you guys joke about this every now and then that like the the the market size for wallets is insane and I feel like you guys will not stop until every one owns a Ridge wallet or what's the

Connor MacDonald: Yeah, well, just some quick math, there's like 300 million people in the US. Half of them are men. So we've got another like 140 million wallets to sell, something like that. We're looking for 100% penetration. Um, but no, we we've thought it obviously wallets are a tough category because one, guys typically only own one and then ours is guaranteed for life. So every time we acquire a new customer, it's actually I think slightly more difficult to acquire the next one. Um, so we've thought a lot about product expansion and category expansion. So the way our business is structured is we have really our three scalable categories. We have everyday carry, we have travel, we have rings, and uh, or we call it jewelry, and then we have hero products within that, wallet, luggage, wedding bands. Um, now what I'll say quickly is I think to a certain degree, there are economies of scale to producing creative. Like if I have a new product, I think the hardest ads to make from a time perspective are probably the first 10. If I need to make five more, it doesn't require 50% more energy. So you want to be at from a business perspective, creating products where you can benefit from economies of scale even at the creative level, for instance. Then you get into like because what you want to avoid is building a bunch of products and all of them need 10 unique ads. And then you're spending the hardest ads to make, you've you've given your test the you've given yourself the task of creating six or seven or eight sets of them. That is not a scalable strategy. So you want as fewer scalable ones. That's what we're focused on. That comes down to having a a decent sized TAM, having good economics, and understanding the funnels and acquisition engines you need to build to support those.

Reza Khadjavi: Super cool.

Connor Rolain: Yeah, we have a we have like we we operate, um, with this goal setting framework called the pyramid of clarity, which is very similar to like OKRs. And we have a we have a strategy this year that is only plant seeds that can turn into giants. And we I developed that strategy because I I noticed that like I felt like a lot of our team's time was getting taken up with with like channel rollouts or just overall tactics that might provide performance, but like probably never going to scale. Like Cody talked about this, I think in a previous episode as well. He's like, I don't want my team spending time trying to roll out a channel that's only going to get us to $1,000 a spend per day. Like we take that strategic lens on everything we do. So like, I'm not going to launch ads around kitchen tools. Do I think we could make kitchen tools work in the ad account? Absolutely. It's a $250 set of kitchen tools. We have the margin, we have the price point. But at the end of the day, like I just doubt that product line is ever going to get above a few thousand dollars per day in spend. So like, why would I not spend that time making the next cookware ad that's going to get us an incremental $200,000 or $300,000 of spend. So we're always that's not just with paid, Reza, but like literally everything we do has to be able to pass through that that strategic lens. If the answer's no, this will never this is not a seed that could turn into a giant, we just won't do it. Even if it could get us like an efficiency win at a small scale.

Reza Khadjavi: Can you talk a bit more about that? What what how do you how do you get to that point to realize that like it would be capped at this kind of scale or spend? What's the what's the steps that you go to try to understand where the limits could be?

Connor Rolain: Yeah. I mean, I think you you have to lean on your historical data a lot, you know, like, um, for us, Tik Tok has never been like a major part of our mix. Um, it's a it's a part of our mix, right? But it's like it's not anything higher than 10% ever. Um, and we never got we've never gotten it to anything higher than 10%. We've tried. Um, we haven't we haven't succeeded yet. So at least for now, because we have that historical data to lean on, we have decided that we are not going to spend a ton of time producing like a bunch of net new Tik Tok first content. We think we're better off producing like Facebook and Instagram ad first content that then might port over well to Tik Tok. That could change. Like I I still think there's value into like taking like sprinting at it and seeing if we can get that mix. But that's an example where we made that decision based on the historical data that we do have. Um, not everything you have historical data to like sometimes you just need to trust your gut, right? And be like, I I just don't think kitchen tools are going to work as an acquisition product.

Reza Khadjavi: Tell me more about that one, like the kitchen tools. Like how what's what's the thinking there to know that like it's it's unlikely to scale?

Connor Rolain: It's just a niche product, you know, it's like not everyone is going to want to buy a really expensive set of kitchen tools. That's point number one. Point number two is it actually fits in really nicely with an with an already established funnel of ours, which is our 12 piece set funnel. So like, why would I go build a new acquisition funnel around the kitchen tools when I can just insert this product as an upsell strategically within a funnel that already exists. Like that's going to drive way more acquisition revenue on that product for us than building its own funnel ever is. So it's just like what's that what's that opportunity cost between the two? Um, we know the 12 piece set's our hero product and the six piece set is the next one. So why not just set it up in those funnels that already exist? And like that's probably a better use of our time and and a lower lift than building net new funnels around this product.

Reza Khadjavi: Mhm. Really cool. Connor, you guys have been doing a bunch around, how many people in the world are going to buy wallets? I I feel like you guys joke about this every now and then that like the the the market size for wallets is insane and I feel like you guys will not stop until every one owns a Ridge wallet or what's the

Connor MacDonald: Yeah, well, just some quick math, there's like 300 million people in the US. Half of them are men. So we've got another like 140 million wallets to sell, something like that. We're looking for 100% penetration. Um, but no, we we've thought it obviously wallets are a tough category because one, guys typically only own one and then ours is guaranteed for life. So every time we acquire a new customer, it's actually I think slightly more difficult to acquire the next one. Um, so we've thought a lot about product expansion and category expansion. So the way our business is structured is we have really our three scalable categories. We have everyday carry, we have travel, we have rings, and uh, or we call it jewelry, and then we have hero products within that, wallet, luggage, wedding bands. Um, now what I'll say quickly is I think to a certain degree, there are economies of scale to producing creative. Like if I have a new product, I think the hardest ads to make from a time perspective are probably the first 10. If I need to make five more, it doesn't require 50% more energy. So you want to be at from a business perspective, creating products where you can benefit from economies of scale even at the creative level, for instance. Then you get into like because what you want to avoid is building a bunch of products and all of them need 10 unique ads. And then you're spending the hardest ads to make, you've you've given your test the you've given yourself the task of creating six or seven or eight sets of them. That is not a scalable strategy. So you want as fewer scalable ones. That's what we're focused on. That comes down to having a a decent sized TAM, having good economics, and understanding the funnels and acquisition engines you need to build to support those.

Reza Khadjavi: Super cool.

Connor Rolain: Yeah, we have a we have like we we operate, um, with this goal setting framework called the pyramid of clarity, which is very similar to like OKRs. And we have a we have a strategy this year that is only plant seeds that can turn into giants. And we I developed that strategy because I I noticed that like I felt like a lot of our team's time was getting taken up with with like channel rollouts or just overall tactics that might provide performance, but like probably never going to scale. Like Cody talked about this, I think in a previous episode as well. He's like, I don't want my team spending time trying to roll out a channel that's only going to get us to $1,000 a spend per day. Like we take that strategic lens on everything we do. So like, I'm not going to launch ads around kitchen tools. Do I think we could make kitchen tools work in the ad account? Absolutely. It's a $250 set of kitchen tools. We have the margin, we have the price point. But at the end of the day, like I just doubt that product line is ever going to get above a few thousand dollars per day in spend. So like, why would I not spend that time making the next cookware ad that's going to get us an incremental $200,000 or $300,000 of spend. So we're always that's not just with paid, Reza, but like literally everything we do has to be able to pass through that that strategic lens. If the answer's no, this will never this is not a seed that could turn into a giant, we just won't do it. Even if it could get us like an efficiency win at a small scale.

Reza Khadjavi: Can you talk a bit more about that? What what how do you how do you get to that point to realize that like it would be capped at this kind of scale or spend? What's the what's the steps that you go to try to understand where the limits could be?

Connor Rolain: Yeah. I mean, I think you you have to lean on your historical data a lot, you know, like, um, for us, Tik Tok has never been like a major part of our mix. Um, it's a it's a part of our mix, right? But it's like it's not anything higher than 10% ever. Um, and we never got we've never gotten it to anything higher than 10%. We've tried. Um, we haven't we haven't succeeded yet. So at least for now, because we have that historical data to lean on, we have decided that we are not going to spend a ton of time producing like a bunch of net new Tik Tok first content. We think we're better off producing like Facebook and Instagram ad first content that then might port over well to Tik Tok. That could change. Like I I still think there's value into like taking like sprinting at it and seeing if we can get that mix. But that's an example where we made that decision based on the historical data that we do have. Um, not everything you have historical data to like sometimes you just need to trust your gut, right? And be like, I I just don't think kitchen tools are going to work as an acquisition product.

Reza Khadjavi: Tell me more about that one, like the kitchen tools. Like how what's what's the thinking there to know that like it's it's unlikely to scale?

Connor Rolain: It's just a niche product, you know, it's like not everyone is going to want to buy a really expensive set of kitchen tools. That's point number one. Point number two is it actually fits in really nicely with an with an already established funnel of ours, which is our 12 piece set funnel. So like, why would I go build a new acquisition funnel around the kitchen tools when I can just insert this product as an upsell strategically within a funnel that already exists. Like that's going to drive way more acquisition revenue on that product for us than building its own funnel ever is. So it's just like what's that what's that opportunity cost between the two? Um, we know the 12 piece set's our hero product and the six piece set is the next one. So why not just set it up in those funnels that already exist? And like that's probably a better use of our time and and a lower lift than building net new funnels around this product.

Reza Khadjavi: Mhm. Really cool. Connor, you guys have been doing a bunch around, how many people in the world are going to buy wallets? I I feel like you guys joke about this every now and then that like the the the market size for wallets is insane and I feel like you guys will not stop until every one owns a Ridge wallet or what's the

Connor MacDonald: Yeah, well, just some quick math, there's like 300 million people in the US. Half of them are men. So we've got another like 140 million wallets to sell, something like that. We're looking for 100% penetration. Um, but no, we we've thought it obviously wallets are a tough category because one, guys typically only own one and then ours is guaranteed for life. So every time we acquire a new customer, it's actually I think slightly more difficult to acquire the next one. Um, so we've thought a lot about product expansion and category expansion. So the way our business is structured is we have really our three scalable categories. We have everyday carry, we have travel, we have rings, and uh, or we call it jewelry, and then we have hero products within that, wallet, luggage, wedding bands. Um, now what I'll say quickly is I think to a certain degree, there are economies of scale to producing creative. Like if I have a new product, I think the hardest ads to make from a time perspective are probably the first 10. If I need to make five more, it doesn't require 50% more energy. So you want to be at from a business perspective, creating products where you can benefit from economies of scale even at the creative level, for instance. Then you get into like because what you want to avoid is building a bunch of products and all of them need 10 unique ads. And then you're spending the hardest ads to make, you've you've given your test the you've given yourself the task of creating six or seven or eight sets of them. That is not a scalable strategy. So you want as fewer scalable ones. That's what we're focused on. That comes down to having a a decent sized TAM, having good economics, and understanding the funnels and acquisition engines you need to build to support those.

Reza Khadjavi: Super cool.

Connor Rolain: Yeah, we have a we have like we we operate, um, with this goal setting framework called the pyramid of clarity, which is very similar to like OKRs. And we have a we have a strategy this year that is only plant seeds that can turn into giants. And we I developed that strategy because I I noticed that like I felt like a lot of our team's time was getting taken up with with like channel rollouts or just overall tactics that might provide performance, but like probably never going to scale. Like Cody talked about this, I think in a previous episode as well. He's like, I don't want my team spending time trying to roll out a channel that's only going to get us to $1,000 a spend per day. Like we take that strategic lens on everything we do. So like, I'm not going to launch ads around kitchen tools. Do I think we could make kitchen tools work in the ad account? Absolutely. It's a $250 set of kitchen tools. We have the margin, we have the price point. But at the end of the day, like I just doubt that product line is ever going to get above a few thousand dollars per day in spend. So like, why would I not spend that time making the next cookware ad that's going to get us an incremental $200,000 or $300,000 of spend. So we're always that's not just with paid, Reza, but like literally everything we do has to be able to pass through that that strategic lens. If the answer's no, this will never this is not a seed that could turn into a giant, we just won't do it. Even if it could get us like an efficiency win at a small scale.

Reza Khadjavi: Can you talk a bit more about that? What what how do you how do you get to that point to realize that like it would be capped at this kind of scale or spend? What's the what's the steps that you go to try to understand where the limits could be?

Connor Rolain: Yeah. I mean, I think you you have to lean on your historical data a lot, you know, like, um, for us, Tik Tok has never been like a major part of our mix. Um, it's a it's a part of our mix, right? But it's like it's not anything higher than 10% ever. Um, and we never got we've never gotten it to anything higher than 10%. We've tried. Um, we haven't we haven't succeeded yet. So at least for now, because we have that historical data to lean on, we have decided that we are not going to spend a ton of time producing like a bunch of net new Tik Tok first content. We think we're better off producing like Facebook and Instagram ad first content that then might port over well to Tik Tok. That could change. Like I I still think there's value into like taking like sprinting at it and seeing if we can get that mix. But that's an example where we made that decision based on the historical data that we do have. Um, not everything you have historical data to like sometimes you just need to trust your gut, right? And be like, I I just don't think kitchen tools are going to work as an acquisition product.

Reza Khadjavi: Tell me more about that one, like the kitchen tools. Like how what's what's the thinking there to know that like it's it's unlikely to scale?

Connor Rolain: It's just a niche product, you know, it's like not everyone is going to want to buy a really expensive set of kitchen tools. That's point number one. Point number two is it actually fits in really nicely with an with an already established funnel of ours, which is our 12 piece set funnel. So like, why would I go build a new acquisition funnel around the kitchen tools when I can just insert this product as an upsell strategically within a funnel that already exists. Like that's going to drive way more acquisition revenue on that product for us than building its own funnel ever is. So it's just like what's that what's that opportunity cost between the two? Um, we know the 12 piece set's our hero product and the six piece set is the next one. So why not just set it up in those funnels that already exist? And like that's probably a better use of our time and and a lower lift than building net new funnels around this product.

Reza Khadjavi: Mhm. Really cool. Connor, you guys have been doing a bunch around, how many people in the world are going to buy wallets? I I feel like you guys joke about this every now and then that like the the the market size for wallets is insane and I feel like you guys will not stop until every one owns a Ridge wallet or what's the

Connor MacDonald: Yeah, well, just some quick math, there's like 300 million people in the US. Half of them are men. So we've got another like 140 million wallets to sell, something like that. We're looking for 100% penetration. Um, but no, we we've thought it obviously wallets are a tough category because one, guys typically only own one and then ours is guaranteed for life. So every time we acquire a new customer, it's actually I think slightly more difficult to acquire the next one. Um, so we've thought a lot about product expansion and category expansion. So the way our business is structured is we have really our three scalable categories. We have everyday carry, we have travel, we have rings, and uh, or we call it jewelry, and then we have hero products within that, wallet, luggage, wedding bands. Um, now what I'll say quickly is I think to a certain degree, there are economies of scale to producing creative. Like if I have a new product, I think the hardest ads to make from a time perspective are probably the first 10. If I need to make five more, it doesn't require 50% more energy. So you want to be at from a business perspective, creating products where you can benefit from economies of scale even at the creative level, for instance. Then you get into like because what you want to avoid is building a bunch of products and all of them need 10 unique ads. And then you're spending the hardest ads to make, you've you've given your test the you've given yourself the task of creating six or seven or eight sets of them. That is not a scalable strategy. So you want as fewer scalable ones. That's what we're focused on. That comes down to having a a decent sized TAM, having good economics, and understanding the funnels and acquisition engines you need to build to support those.

Reza Khadjavi: Super cool.

Connor Rolain: Yeah, we have a we have like we we operate, um, with this goal setting framework called the pyramid of clarity, which is very similar to like OKRs. And we have a we have a strategy this year that is only plant seeds that can turn into giants. And we I developed that strategy because I I noticed that like I felt like a lot of our team's time was getting taken up with with like channel rollouts or just overall tactics that might provide performance, but like probably never going to scale. Like Cody talked about this, I think in a previous episode as well. He's like, I don't want my team spending time trying to roll out a channel that's only going to get us to $1,000 a spend per day. Like we take that strategic lens on everything we do. So like, I'm not going to launch ads around kitchen tools. Do I think we could make kitchen tools work in the ad account? Absolutely. It's a $250 set of kitchen tools. We have the margin, we have the price point. But at the end of the day, like I just doubt that product line is ever going to get above a few thousand dollars per day in spend. So like, why would I not spend that time making the next cookware ad that's going to get us an incremental $200,000 or $300,000 of spend. So we're always that's not just with paid, Reza, but like literally everything we do has to be able to pass through that that strategic lens. If the answer's no, this will never this is not a seed that could turn into a giant, we just won't do it. Even if it could get us like an efficiency win at a small scale.

Reza Khadjavi: Can you talk a bit more about that? What what how do you how do you get to that point to realize that like it would be capped at this kind of scale or spend? What's the what's the steps that you go to try to understand where the limits could be?

Connor Rolain: Yeah. I mean, I think you you have to lean on your historical data a lot, you know, like, um, for us, Tik Tok has never been like a major part of our mix. Um, it's a it's a part of our mix, right? But it's like it's not anything higher than 10% ever. Um, and we never got we've never gotten it to anything higher than 10%. We've tried. Um, we haven't we haven't succeeded yet. So at least for now, because we have that historical data to lean on, we have decided that we are not going to spend a ton of time producing like a bunch of net new Tik Tok first content. We think we're better off producing like Facebook and Instagram ad first content that then might port over well to Tik Tok. That could change. Like I I still think there's value into like taking like sprinting at it and seeing if we can get that mix. But that's an example where we made that decision based on the historical data that we do have. Um, not everything you have historical data to like sometimes you just need to trust your gut, right? And be like, I I just don't think kitchen tools are going to work as an acquisition product.

Reza Khadjavi: Tell me more about that one, like the kitchen tools. Like how what's what's the thinking there to know that like it's it's unlikely to scale?

Connor Rolain: It's just a niche product, you know, it's like not everyone is going to want to buy a really expensive set of kitchen tools. That's point number one. Point number two is it actually fits in really nicely with an with an already established funnel of ours, which is our 12 piece set funnel. So like, why would I go build a new acquisition funnel around the kitchen tools when I can just insert this product as an upsell strategically within a funnel that already exists. Like that's going to drive way more acquisition revenue on that product for us than building its own funnel ever is. So it's just like what's that what's that opportunity cost between the two? Um, we know the 12 piece set's our hero product and the six piece set is the next one. So why not just set it up in those funnels that already exist? And like that's probably a better use of our time and and a lower lift than building net new funnels around this product.

Reza Khadjavi: Mhm. Really cool. Connor, you guys have been doing a bunch around, how many people in the world are going to buy wallets? I I feel like you guys joke about this every now and then that like the the the market size for wallets is insane and I feel like you guys will not stop until every one owns a Ridge wallet or what's the

Connor MacDonald: Yeah, well, just some quick math, there's like 300 million people in the US. Half of them are men. So we've got another like 140 million wallets to sell, something like that. We're looking for 100% penetration. Um, but no, we we've thought it obviously wallets are a tough category because one, guys typically only own one and then ours is guaranteed for life. So every time we acquire a new customer, it's actually I think slightly more difficult to acquire the next one. Um, so we've thought a lot about product expansion and category expansion. So the way our business is structured is we have really our three scalable categories. We have everyday carry, we have travel, we have rings, and uh, or we call it jewelry, and then we have hero products within that, wallet, luggage, wedding bands. Um, now what I'll say quickly is I think to a certain degree, there are economies of scale to producing creative. Like if I have a new product, I think the hardest ads to make from a time perspective are probably the first 10. If I need to make five more, it doesn't require 50% more energy. So you want to be at from a business perspective, creating products where you can benefit from economies of scale even at the creative level, for instance. Then you get into like because what you want to avoid is building a bunch of products and all of them need 10 unique ads. And then you're spending the hardest ads to make, you've you've given your test the you've given yourself the task of creating six or seven or eight sets of them. That is not a scalable strategy. So you want as fewer scalable ones. That's what we're focused on. That comes down to having a a decent sized TAM, having good economics, and understanding the funnels and acquisition engines you need to build to support those.

Reza Khadjavi: Super cool.

Connor Rolain: Yeah, we have a we have like we we operate, um, with this goal setting framework called the pyramid of clarity, which is very similar to like OKRs. And we have a we have a strategy this year that is only plant seeds that can turn into giants. And we I developed that strategy because I I noticed that like I felt like a lot of our team's time was getting taken up with with like channel rollouts or just overall tactics that might provide performance, but like probably never going to scale. Like Cody talked about this, I think in a previous episode as well. He's like, I don't want my team spending time trying to roll out a channel that's only going to get us to $1,000 a spend per day. Like we take that strategic lens on everything we do. So like, I'm not going to launch ads around kitchen tools. Do I think we could make kitchen tools work in the ad account? Absolutely. It's a $250 set of kitchen tools. We have the margin, we have the price point. But at the end of the day, like I just doubt that product line is ever going to get above a few thousand dollars per day in spend. So like, why would I not spend that time making the next cookware ad that's going to get us an incremental $200,000 or $300,000 of spend. So we're always that's not just with paid, Reza, but like literally everything we do has to be able to pass through that that strategic lens. If the answer's no, this will never this is not a seed that could turn into a giant, we just won't do it. Even if it could get us like an efficiency win at a small scale.

Reza Khadjavi: Can you talk a bit more about that? What what how do you how do you get to that point to realize that like it would be capped at this kind of scale or spend? What's the what's the steps that you go to try to understand where the limits could be?

Connor Rolain: Yeah. I mean, I think you you have to lean on your historical data a lot, you know, like, um, for us, Tik Tok has never been like a major part of our mix. Um, it's a it's a part of our mix, right? But it's like it's not anything higher than 10% ever. Um, and we never got we've never gotten it to anything higher than 10%. We've tried. Um, we haven't we haven't succeeded yet. So at least for now, because we have that historical data to lean on, we have decided that we are not going to spend a ton of time producing like a bunch of net new Tik Tok first content. We think we're better off producing like Facebook and Instagram ad first content that then might port over well to Tik Tok. That could change. Like I I still think there's value into like taking like sprinting at it and seeing if we can get that mix. But that's an example where we made that decision based on the historical data that we do have. Um, not everything you have historical data to like sometimes you just need to trust your gut, right? And be like, I I just don't think kitchen tools are going to work as an acquisition product.

Reza Khadjavi: Tell me more about that one, like the kitchen tools. Like how what's what's the thinking there to know that like it's it's unlikely to scale?

Connor Rolain: It's just a niche product, you know, it's like not everyone is going to want to buy a really expensive set of kitchen tools. That's point number one. Point number two is it actually fits in really nicely with an with an already established funnel of ours, which is our 12 piece set funnel. So like, why would I go build a new acquisition funnel around the kitchen tools when I can just insert this product as an upsell strategically within a funnel that already exists. Like that's going to drive way more acquisition revenue on that product for us than building its own funnel ever is. So it's just like what's that what's that opportunity cost between the two? Um, we know the 12 piece set's our hero product and the six piece set is the next one. So why not just set it up in those funnels that already exist? And like that's probably a better use of our time and and a lower lift than building net new funnels around this product.

Reza Khadjavi: Mhm. Really cool. Connor, you guys have been doing a bunch around, how many people in the world are going to buy wallets? I I feel like you guys joke about this every now and then that like the the the market size for wallets is insane and I feel like you guys will not stop until every one owns a Ridge wallet or what's the

Connor MacDonald: Yeah, well, just some quick math, there's like 300 million people in the US. Half of them are men. So we've got another like 140 million wallets to sell, something like that. We're looking for 100% penetration. Um, but no, we we've thought it obviously wallets are a tough category because one, guys typically only own one and then ours is guaranteed for life. So every time we acquire a new customer, it's actually I think slightly more difficult to acquire the next one. Um, so we've thought a lot about product expansion and category expansion. So the way our business is structured is we have really our three scalable categories. We have everyday carry, we have travel, we have rings, and uh, or we call it jewelry, and then we have hero products within that, wallet, luggage, wedding bands. Um, now what I'll say quickly is I think to a certain degree, there are economies of scale to producing creative. Like if I have a new product, I think the hardest ads to make from a time perspective are probably the first 10. If I need to make five more, it doesn't require 50% more energy. So you want to be at from a business perspective, creating products where you can benefit from economies of scale even at the creative level, for instance. Then you get into like because what you want to avoid is building a bunch of products and all of them need 10 unique ads. And then you're spending the hardest ads to make, you've you've given your test the you've given yourself the task of creating six or seven or eight sets of them. That is not a scalable strategy. So you want as fewer scalable ones. That's what we're focused on. That comes down to having a a decent sized TAM, having good economics, and understanding the funnels and acquisition engines you need to build to support those.

Reza Khadjavi: Super cool.

Connor Rolain: Yeah, we have a we have like we we operate, um, with this goal setting framework called the pyramid of clarity, which is very similar to like OKRs. And we have a we have a strategy this year that is only plant seeds that can turn into giants. And we I developed that strategy because I I noticed that like I felt like a lot of our team's time was getting taken up with with like channel rollouts or just overall tactics that might provide performance, but like probably never going to scale. Like Cody talked about this, I think in a previous episode as well. He's like, I don't want my team spending time trying to roll out a channel that's only going to get us to $1,000 a spend per day. Like we take that strategic lens on everything we do. So like, I'm not going to launch ads around kitchen tools. Do I think we could make kitchen tools work in the ad account? Absolutely. It's a $250 set of kitchen tools. We have the margin, we have the price point. But at the end of the day, like I just doubt that product line is ever going to get above a few thousand dollars per day in spend. So like, why would I not spend that time making the next cookware ad that's going to get us an incremental $200,000 or $300,000 of spend. So we're always that's not just with paid, Reza, but like literally everything we do has to be able to pass through that that strategic lens. If the answer's no, this will never this is not a seed that could turn into a giant, we just won't do it. Even if it could get us like an efficiency win at a small scale.

Reza Khadjavi: Can you talk a bit more about that? What what how do you how do you get to that point to realize that like it would be capped at this kind of scale or spend? What's the what's the steps that you go to try to understand where the limits could be?

Connor Rolain: Yeah. I mean, I think you you have to lean on your historical data a lot, you know, like, um, for us, Tik Tok has never been like a major part of our mix. Um, it's a it's a part of our mix, right? But it's like it's not anything higher than 10% ever. Um, and we never got we've never gotten it to anything higher than 10%. We've tried. Um, we haven't we haven't succeeded yet. So at least for now, because we have that historical data to lean on, we have decided that we are not going to spend a ton of time producing like a bunch of net new Tik Tok first content. We think we're better off producing like Facebook and Instagram ad first content that then might port over well to Tik Tok. That could change. Like I I still think there's value into like taking like sprinting at it and seeing if we can get that mix. But that's an example where we made that decision based on the historical data that we do have. Um, not everything you have historical data to like sometimes you just need to trust your gut, right? And be like, I I just don't think kitchen tools are going to work as an acquisition product.

Reza Khadjavi: Tell me more about that one, like the kitchen tools. Like how what's what's the thinking there to know that like it's it's unlikely to scale?

Connor Rolain: It's just a niche product, you know, it's like not everyone is going to want to buy a really expensive set of kitchen tools. That's point number one. Point number two is it actually fits in really nicely with an with an already established funnel of ours, which is our 12 piece set funnel. So like, why would I go build a new acquisition funnel around the kitchen tools when I can just insert this product as an upsell strategically within a funnel that already exists. Like that's going to drive way more acquisition revenue on that product for us than building its own funnel ever is. So it's just like what's that what's that opportunity cost between the two? Um, we know the 12 piece set's our hero product and the six piece set is the next one. So why not just set it up in those funnels that already exist? And like that's probably a better use of our time and and a lower lift than building net new funnels around this product.

Reza Khadjavi: Mhm. Really cool. Connor, you guys have been doing a bunch around, how many people in the world are going to buy wallets? I I feel like you guys joke about this every now and then that like the the the market size for wallets is insane and I feel like you guys will not stop until every one owns a Ridge wallet or what's the

Connor MacDonald: Yeah, well, just some quick math, there's like 300 million people in the US. Half of them are men. So we've got another like 140 million wallets to sell, something like that. We're looking for 100% penetration. Um, but no, we we've thought it obviously wallets are a tough category because one, guys typically only own one and then ours is guaranteed for life. So every time we acquire a new customer, it's actually I think slightly more difficult to acquire the next one. Um, so we've thought a lot about product expansion and category expansion. So the way our business is structured is we have really our three scalable categories. We have everyday carry, we have travel, we have rings, and uh, or we call it jewelry, and then we have hero products within that, wallet, luggage, wedding bands. Um, now what I'll say quickly is I think to a certain degree, there are economies of scale to producing creative. Like if I have a new product, I think the hardest ads to make from a time perspective are probably the first 10. If I need to make five more, it doesn't require 50% more energy. So you want to be at from a business perspective, creating products where you can benefit from economies of scale even at the creative level, for instance. Then you get into like because what you want to avoid is building a bunch of products and all of them need 10 unique ads. And then you're spending the hardest ads to make, you've you've given your test the you've given yourself the task of creating six or seven or eight sets of them. That is not a scalable strategy. So you want as fewer scalable ones. That's what we're focused on. That comes down to having a a decent sized TAM, having good economics, and understanding the funnels and acquisition engines you need to build to support those.

Reza Khadjavi: Super cool.

Connor Rolain: Yeah, we have a we have like we we operate, um, with this goal setting framework called the pyramid of clarity, which is very similar to like OKRs. And we have a we have a strategy this year that is only plant seeds that can turn into giants. And we I developed that strategy because I I noticed that like I felt like a lot of our team's time was getting taken up with with like channel rollouts or just overall tactics that might provide performance, but like probably never going to scale. Like Cody talked about this, I think in a previous episode as well. He's like, I don't want my team spending time trying to roll out a channel that's only going to get us to $1,000 a spend per day. Like we take that strategic lens on everything we do. So like, I'm not going to launch ads around kitchen tools. Do I think we could make kitchen tools work in the ad account? Absolutely. It's a $250 set of kitchen tools. We have the margin, we have the price point. But at the end of the day, like I just doubt that product line is ever going to get above a few thousand dollars per day in spend. So like, why would I not spend that time making the next cookware ad that's going to get us an incremental $200,000 or $300,000 of spend. So we're always that's not just with paid, Reza, but like literally everything we do has to be able to pass through that that strategic lens. If the answer's no, this will never this is not a seed that could turn into a giant, we just won't do it. Even if it could get us like an efficiency win at a small scale.

Reza Khadjavi: Can you talk a bit more about that? What what how do you how do you get to that point to realize that like it would be capped at this kind of scale or spend? What's the what's the steps that you go to try to understand where the limits could be?

Connor Rolain: Yeah. I mean, I think you you have to lean on your historical data a lot, you know, like, um, for us, Tik Tok has never been like a major part of our mix. Um, it's a it's a part of our mix, right? But it's like it's not anything higher than 10% ever. Um, and we never got we've never gotten it to anything higher than 10%. We've tried. Um, we haven't we haven't succeeded yet. So at least for now, because we have that historical data to lean on, we have decided that we are not going to spend a ton of time producing like a bunch of net new Tik Tok first content. We think we're better off producing like Facebook and Instagram ad first content that then might port over well to Tik Tok. That could change. Like I I still think there's value into like taking like sprinting at it and seeing if we can get that mix. But that's an example where we made that decision based on the historical data that we do have. Um, not everything you have historical data to like sometimes you just need to trust your gut, right? And be like, I I just don't think kitchen tools are going to work as an acquisition product.

Reza Khadjavi: Tell me more about that one, like the kitchen tools. Like how what's what's the thinking there to know that like it's it's unlikely to scale?

Connor Rolain: It's just a niche product, you know, it's like not everyone is going to want to buy a really expensive set of kitchen tools. That's point number one. Point number two is it actually fits in really nicely with an with an already established funnel of ours, which is our 12 piece set funnel. So like, why would I go build a new acquisition funnel around the kitchen tools when I can just insert this product as an upsell strategically within a funnel that already exists. Like that's going to drive way more